Romey Swanson — The Work of Finding Common Ground
Romey Swanson is the Executive Director of the Devils River Conservancy, and he wears a lot of other hats too—wildlife biologist, naturalist, writer, photographer, and a leader in just about every corner of the Texas conservation world. The Devils River is generally considered the most pristine stream in Texas, and maybe in the entire Southwest—remote, spring-fed, and held together entirely by private landowners. The county it runs through leads all 254 counties in Texas in privately conserved acres, and none of it was required by regulation. If you’ve ever wondered how conservation gets done in a place with almost no public land, Romey and his community have built a model worth paying attention to.
Romey grew up in rural West Virginia as part of what he calls the last generation of feral children—turned loose outside with instructions to be home before dark, with the creek behind the house as his best friend. His family moved to Texas when he was in junior high, and like most teenagers, he traded all of that for sports and a social life. He was a first-generation college student headed toward sports medicine when he walked past a flyer at Texas State advertising a Wildlife Society meeting—free pizza and live animals. He went for the pizza, met a faculty advisor, and changed his major that week.
I’ve known Romey for six or seven years, and we cover a lot of ground here—his early days filling deer feeders and checking bird nest boxes, why he says waiting tables taught him as much about this work as his degrees, and whether leadership can actually be taught. We get into the threats facing the Devils River—data centers, transmission lines, and energy projects that can undo decades of voluntary conservation—and his work with the mountain lion stakeholder group in Texas, which has some obvious parallels to the wolf situation here in Colorado. There’s also a good stretch on his passion projects, including his owl research in the mountains of far West Texas, and why he decided to use social media to push out something positive instead of more conflict. We wrap up with a few book recommendations and his encouragement to all of us to just pay attention. I loved this conversation… Enjoy!
Photos courtesy of Romey Swanson
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
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A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing Romey Swanson and highlighting Cattlemen’s
- 6:30 – Romey describes his work
- 10:16 – How he got into his work
- 14:42 – Texas pride
- 17:37 – Early Romey
- 21:30 – First leadership opportunity
- 29:34 – Devils River Conservancy
- 35:07 – Keeping the land magical
- 39:14 – Devils River moving forward
- 42:25 – Mountain lions in Texas and wolves in CO
- 56:26 – Ways to keep track
- 1:01:15 – Sending folks to Romey’s podcast
- 1:08:40 – Romey’s Instagram
- 1:12:27 – Book recs
- 1:17:23 – Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Romey Swanson
- Devils River Conservancy
- Romey on Instagram
- Student chapters of The Wildlife Society
- James Teer Conservation Leadership Institute
- The Muster with Jocko Williams
- Big Bend National Park
- Texans for Mountain Lions
- Modern Texas Naturalist
- Big Year bird project rules
- Book recs: Collection of essays called The Heart of the Wild, Grit, The Man in the Arena (Teddy Roosevelt quote), A Natural History of Empty Lots
- Colorado Cattlemen’s Agricultural Land Trust
- Erik Glenn on M&P
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Todd Ulizio – Farming, Attention, and a Life Well Rooted
- Pete McBride – Witness to Water
- Sebastian Junger – On Meaning, Mortality, and Belonging
- Jesse Griffiths – Humility, Curiosity, and Creative Cuisine
- Christy Sing Robertson – On Grit, Hard Work, & Going All In
- Nick Offerman – Empathy, Nuance, & Good Hard Work
- The Partnership of Rangeland Trusts – 20 Years of Cooperation, Collaboration, and Conservation
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
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Mike Bartolo — Soil, Science, and Selflessness
Dr. Mike Bartolo is a third-generation farmer from Pueblo County, Colorado, and a retired research scientist and vegetable crops specialist at Colorado State University. Mike’s grandparents immigrated from Italy in the early 1900s to work in the mines around Pueblo, and after years of backbreaking labor, they saved enough to buy a small farm on the St. Charles Mesa—the beginning of a family legacy on the land that continues to this day. Mike went on to spend more than three decades at CSU serving the farmers of the Arkansas Valley, and while he’d never claim the title himself, many consider him the developer of the legendary Pueblo Chile.
I first met Mike back in 2018 through our mutual work with Palmer Land Conservancy, and ever since, I’ve seen him as a mentor when it comes to matters of water, farmland conservation, long-term thinking, and kindness. His combination of scientific expertise, tireless work ethic, deep humility, and fierce devotion to his family and community is something I’ve rarely encountered. Mike is also one of the main characters profiled in the poignant and powerful Ben Knight documentary MIRASOL: Looking at the Sun, which chronicles Pueblo County’s farming community and its fight to protect its land and water—so it was an honor to finally sit down with him for this long-overdue conversation.
We started with the remarkable story of his grandparents—including his grandfather Rocco, who survived being a prisoner of war in World War I before returning to Colorado to break rocks for the steel industry—and how that generation’s sacrifice continues to guide Mike today. We talked about his childhood on the family farm, where he and his five siblings turned every chore into an Olympic competition, and his path to becoming a plant scientist at CSU. We discussed what makes Pueblo County’s farmland world-class, the cautionary tale of Crowley County’s devastating water sales, and why Mike believes educating and mobilizing the public is the key to protecting the Arkansas Valley’s water. We also dug into the history of the Pueblo Chile, as well as the making of “MIRASOL,” his approach to passionate-but-respectful advocacy, the spiritual connection he feels to the soil, his advice for the next generation of farmers, and much more.
This was such a meaningful conversation for me, and I know you’ll enjoy getting to know Mike as much as I have. Enjoy!
Photos by Ben Knight, courtesy of Palmer Land Conservancy and MIRASOL
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
…or wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing Mike Bartolo and highlighting MIRASOL
- 7:03 – Reconnecting with Mike
- 8:16 – Mike’s grandparents
- 12:14 – A particular kind of work ethic
- 17:28 – Growing up competitive
- 20:01 – Developing expertise
- 23:30 – Farmland development
- 28:33 – Pueblo County
- 30:56 – Colorado water
- 36:27 – Solutions?
- 40:57 – MIRASOL
- 45:20 – The Pueblo chile
- 51:06 – Being an advocate
- 55:58 – Mike’s advice to younger folks
- 59:03 – Time spent now
- 1:00:51 – Book (or video) recs and anthropology inspo
- 1:06:07 – Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Dr. Michael Bartolo
- Mike being inducted into The Colorado Agricultural Hall of Fame
- PBS Q&A with Mike about the Pueblo Chile
- MIRASOL: Looking at the Sun
- Acclaimed filmmaker and amazing human Ben Knight
- Mike’s Innovation in Conservation Award film
- Palmer Land Conservancy, where Ed worked closely with Mike
- Ed’s public lands episode with Adam Cramer
- Pueblo Chile and the New Mexico Chile
- Pueblo Chile Festival
- Book recs: Colin Powell autobiography (My American Journey), Life and Work by Wendell Berry
- Sebastian Junger on M&P
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Yvon Chouinard – The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
- Kristine Tompkins – Nothing to Lose
- Pete McBride – Witness to Water
- Dillon Osleger – Trails, Maps, and the Hidden Stories of Our Public Lands
- Todd Ulizio – Farming, Attention, and a Life Well Rooted
- Cole Mannix & Andrew Anderson – The Hard Work of Building a Better Food System
- Elliot Ross: Where Landscape, Justice, and Storytelling Meet
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
M&P IS LISTENER-SUPPORTED VIA PATREON
Heather Hansman — The Untold Stories of Three Fierce Women
This is Heather Hansman’s third appearance on the podcast, and if you’ve been listening for a while, you know how much her work has shaped my own understanding of the West. Heather is an award-winning journalist and the author of Downriver and Powder Days—two books I reference constantly—and she’s back today to talk about her brand-new book, Fierce Country: The Untold Story of Three Women Who Ignited America’s Love for the Wild, which hits shelves the same day this episode is released.
Fierce Country tells the stories of three women who were pivotal in shaping how we think about recreation and conservation today, yet whose stories have largely gone untold: Georgie White, one of the first Grand Canyon river guides; Anne LaBastille, an off-the-grid Adirondack guide and pioneering climate scientist; and Dolores LaChapelle, a legendary powder skier and environmental philosopher whose ideas helped launch the deep ecology movement. These are three complicated, larger-than-life characters, and Heather weaves their wild adventures together with her own personal story in a way that makes the book resonate no matter who you are. As always with Heather’s work, it introduced me to ideas I didn’t even know I needed to be thinking about.
Heather and I talked about how she chose these three women and why their stories were left out of the history most of us learned, and we dug into some of the big ideas woven throughout the book—the heroine’s journey versus the hero’s journey, the superwoman myth, and the surprising research on men and women in outdoor sports. We discussed the double standards that outdoorswomen face, especially as parents, and the culture of harassment that unfortunately still exists in the outdoor world. We also chatted about Heather’s recent investigative reporting on bots gaming the recreation.gov permit system, the importance of journalism and speaking truth to power, and how five years of living with these women’s stories has changed the way Heather moves through the world.
I loved this conversation, and I can’t recommend Fierce Country highly enough—the book is out today, so be sure to click through to the episode notes and grab a copy.
Photos courtesy of Heather Hansman
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
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Spotify
…or wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing Heather Hansman (again) and highlighting Patagonia books
- 7:00 – Book number three
- 8:08 – Overview of Fierce Country
- 12:05 – Why these women
- 16:22 – Georgie and Anne on the wild
- 19:31 – Anne vs. Thoreau
- 23:08 – Constraint drives creativity
- 26:12 – Driven by hardships
- 28:58 – The heroine’s journey
- 30:45 – Female and male differences
- 35:40- To scold or not to scold
- 41:41 – Pitching the book
- 44:08 – Outward Bound
- 46:56 – Recreation.gov
- 50:07 – Slowing down
- 56:48 – Bad feminism
- 1:04:50 – What’s next for Heather
Information Referenced:
- Heather Hansman
- Fierce Country: The Untold Story of Three Women Who Ignited America’s Love for the Wild
- Heather’s first and second M&P episodes
- Down River and Powder Days, Heather’s other books
- Various Simone de Beauvoir quotes
- Ski Magazine (now Outside-owned)
- Georgie White, first woman to run the Grand Canyon commercially
- Anne LaBastille, mountain guide in Adirondacks, inspired by Thoreau
- Dolores LaChapelle, one of the best powder skiers ever, per Heather
- Deep ecology
- The Heroine’s Journey
- Rachel Entrekin’s Cocodona 250 victory (And for fun, Jennifer Lichter’s course-record setting at Western States this year.)
- Hilaree Nelson tragedy
- Cheryl Strayed’s Wild
- Outward Bound
- Meriwether Hardie on M&P
- Heather’s RE:PUBLIC article on recreation.gov
- Sam from River Radius on M&P
- Sam’s podcast about bots and permits
- Patagonia books
- Yvon Chouinard on M&P
- Three women-focused books published by Patagonia: Swell, Padding my Own Canoe and Paddling North
- Rick Ridgeway, Doug Peacock and Dylan Tomine on M&P
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Kristine Tompkins – Nothing to Lose
- Elif Koyutürk — Filmmaking, Resilience, and a Vanishing Way of Life
- Meriwether Hardie – What You Learn Riding Across the West
- Jazmine Ulloa – The Untold History of El Paso
- Stella Maria Baer – Moons, Horses, and New Mexico Light
- Bex Frucht — Story Wrangler! Vibe Steward! One of a Kind!
- Kate Williams – Leadership Lessons from the CEO of 1% for the Planet
- Helen Rebanks – “The Farmer’s Wife” – Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Janie & Louise Roberson – Chatting It Up With Their Old Man
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
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Elif Koyutürk — Filmmaking, Resilience, and a Vanishing Way of Life
Elif Koyutürk is a filmmaker, photographer, and all-around artist originally from Istanbul, now based in Bend, Oregon. Elif works across many mediums—photography, poetry, film, and more—but the throughline in everything she does is a drive to make people feel a story, not just read the facts of it. She brings a rare kind of power and passion to her work, and it’s clear that her connection to land and place isn’t just a subject for her, it’s personal.
Like so many fascinating people I talk to on this podcast, her path wasn’t a straight line. She grew up between the massive city of Istanbul and her family’s farm, raised by journalist parents and a house full of grandmothers steeped in Anatolian tradition. She taught herself photography using a camera with a moldy, secondhand 23-euro lens and won international awards with it before she ever touched professional, high-dollar gear. From there she talked her way onto a Red Bull film crew in a hotel lobby, worked in Austria, and eventually landed in Los Angeles with one suitcase and no contacts, on an “Extraordinary Ability” visa.
In this conversation, we get into all of it—her childhood in Istanbul, her creative process and her synesthesia, and how she built a career from nothing through sheer resourcefulness and energy. We also spend a lot of time on her new film, Guardians of Anatolia, which premiered at Telluride Mountainfilm and follows a female-led nomadic tribe in Turkey’s Taurus Mountains as they fight to hold onto a 9,000-year-old matriarchal way of life against modern water and land pressures.
I hope you enjoy this one, as it hits on so many of the topics I enjoy– art, conservation, agriculture, creativity, and hard work– but with an international perspective that is now rooted here in the West.
Photos courtesy of Elif Koyutürk
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
…or wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:



RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing Elif Koyutürk
- 2:49 – Early Elif
- 7:36 – Artistic inclinations
- 11:33 – To the U.S.
- 18:34 – Off the plane in L.A.
- 22:20 – Making money
- 24:57 – Connections to friendships
- 28:50 – Being raw and clumsy
- 30:49 – Guardians of Anatolia origin story
- 37:49 – A vanishing way of life
- 40:23 – Emerging filmmaker
- 43:40 – Path forward for the film
- 45:54 – What’s next
- 51:39 – Old Salt takeaways
- 57:15 – Plot twist: jiu jitsu!
- 1:02:52 – Rivers in Bend, OR
- 1:05:35 – Book recs
- 1:08:16 – Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Elif Koyutürk
- Guardians of Anatolia
- Elif’s Instagram
- A Q&A with Elif on Motoron about her career and shooting TransAntonia
- Nick Offerman on M&P
- Mountainfilm Emerging Filmmaker Fellowship
- Old Salt Festival
- Past Ed convos at Old Salt
- Eduardo Garcia, chef at Old Salt
- Elif in the Bend rivers
- Book recs: Richard Bach’s Jonathan Livingston Seagull,The Chalice and the Blade by Riane Eisler, The Living Goddesses by Marija Gimbutas, Alan Lightmen’s Mr. g
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Kristine Tompkins – Nothing to Lose
- Hillary Rosner – Why Wildlife Needs Room to Roam
- Stella Maria Baer – Moons, Horses, and New Mexico Light
- Kelsey Morris Returns – Going All In on Art
- Yvon Chouinard – The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
- Helen Rebanks – “The Farmer’s Wife” – Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Sara Domek – The Science and Story of Wyoming’s Wildlife Migration
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
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A Public Lands Update + Ways to TAKE ACTION, with Adam Cramer
This is my second episode with Adam Cramer, CEO of the Outdoor Alliance, a coalition of ten national organizations representing the human-powered outdoor community—mountain biking, backcountry skiing, kayaking, climbing, trail running, and more. The Outdoor Alliance works to protect public lands and the places these communities love, getting deeply involved in conservation policy and empowering people to take action on behalf of the landscapes that matter to them. The last year has been a relentless one for public lands, with threats coming from every direction, and Adam and his team have been in the thick of it.
Normally my episodes are “evergreen,” but given everything happening right now, I wanted to bring Adam back to give us an update on the current threats—as well as some genuine bright spots. This is such a moving target with so many moving pieces that it can be really hard to keep up with everything and, most importantly, to know how to stop talking and take action. So I brought Adam in to help us make sense of it all and give us some instruction on how we can go on the offense to keep public lands public.
We cover a lot of ground: the public lands sell-off that arose out of last summer’s reconciliation bill and the massive, cross-partisan public blowback that killed it; the fight over the Roadless Rule; the rescinding of the BLM’s Public Lands Rule; proposed changes to travel management and motorized vehicle rules; and the reorganization happening inside the land management agencies. But it’s not all grim—Adam walks us through the real reasons for hope, including bipartisan efforts like the Public Lands in Public Hands Act, the EXPLORE Act, and the Legacy Restoration Fund, which is moving through Congress right now and is one of the most important places listeners can weigh in today.
We also get into Adam’s pragmatic, calm approach to all of this—why he refuses to be hysterical even when the stakes are high, what he’s learned about strategy and compassion across the table, and how everyday people with jobs and families can stay informed and actually take action without drowning in the noise. He closes with some great book recommendations and a reminder to embrace and bask in the joy of place.
And just for some context, we recorded this on June 22, 2026. I hope you enjoy it and learn as much as I did. And most importantly, I hope you’ll TAKE ACTION!
Header photo by of the Rogue River by Ed, headshot courtesy of The Outdoor Alliance
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
…or wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:



RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing Adam Cramer and highlighting the Well Done Foundation
- 6:05 – Outdoor Alliance reminder
- 10:02 – One Big Beautiful Bill post-mortem
- 14:18 – The Roadless Rule
- 17:47 – What’s the point of rescission?
- 19:51 – Following the herd
- 20:01 – Deferred maintenance
- 22:47 – Taking action: Roadless Rule
- 25:24 – Forest Service moves West
- 31:18 – A plethora of land types
- 33:34 – Just trying to protect the land
- 35:29 – BLM Public Lands Rule
- 39:36 – Swings
- 43:06 – Staying calm (alert: a jiu jitsu reference)
- 49:42 – Legacy Restoration Fund
- 56:08 – How to stay informed
- 58:54 – Motorized use
- 1:04:30 – Book recs
- 1:05:54 – Parting words
Information Referenced:
- Adam Cramer
- Outdoor Alliance (Scroll down on the home page to sign up for their email list.)
- Adam’s first M&P episode
- The Roadless Rule
- Miles of roads on public lands
- How to contact your representatives
- Moving the Forest Service HQ to the West from D.C.
- Beyond the Hundredth Meridian
- BLM Public Lands Rule
- Gabe Vasquez on M&P
- OA’s newest member org: Runners for Public Lands
- Restore Act, Public Lands in Public Hands Act and the Legacy Restoration Fund
- Why David Sometimes Wins
- Adam-recommended resources to use to stay informed: the New York Times, Washington Post, RE:PUBLIC (Chris Keyes on M&P), The Dirtbag Diaries
- Book recs: Cloud Cuckoo Land, End of the Myth, Topophilia
- Well Done Foundation
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Dillon Osleger – Trails, Maps, and the Hidden Stories of Our Public Lands
- Dr. Sara Dant Returns – “Losing Eden: An Environmental History of the American West”
- Nick Offerman – Empathy, Nuance, & Good Hard Work
- Betsy Gaines Quammen – A Fascinating History of Public Lands in the West
- Douglas Brinkley – Exploring the Past to Find Inspiration for the Future
- Pete McBride – Witness to Water
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
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Five Foundational Conservation Books That Shaped How I See the West
In this solo episode, I share five books that fundamentally shaped my understanding of conservation, public lands, water, ranching, and the American West. These are the books that helped transform me from a ranch broker with a growing curiosity about conservation into someone who eventually devoted much of his career – and this podcast – to exploring the people and ideas shaping the landscapes of the West.
Along the way, I discuss Theodore Roosevelt, wildfire policy, regenerative grazing, Western water, and the history of conservation, while highlighting conversations from the Mountain & Prairie archive that connect to each book. Whether you’re new to these topics or looking to deepen your understanding on anything from water to ranching to history, these books provide an excellent foundation. Enjoy!!
THE BOOKS:
- Losing Eden: An Environmental History of the American West by Sara Dant
- The Big Burn: Teddy Roosevelt and the Fire That Saved America by Timothy Egan
- For the Love of Land: Global Case Studies of Grazing in Nature’s Image by Jim Howell
- Downriver: Into the Future of Water in the West by Heather Hansman
- The Wilderness Warrior: Theodore Roosevelt and the Crusade for America by Douglas Brinkley
THE RELATED EPISODES:
- Sara Dant – First and Second
- Rob Addington
- Good Fire, Bad Fire
- Jim Howell – First and Second
- Heather Hansman – First and Second
- Douglas Brinkley
Photos courtesy of Dillon Osleger
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
…or wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:



RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 00:00 – Introduction & why these books matter
- 03:05 – Losing Eden by Sarah Dant
- 09:25 – The Big Burn by Timothy Egan
- 16:05 – For the Love of Land by Jim Howell
- 23:35 – Downriver by Heather Hansman
- 29:05 – The Wilderness Warrior by Douglas Brinkley
- 35:25 – Final thoughts & closing remarks
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Our 10 Favorite Adventure Books, with Mark Kenyon
- 10 Must-Read Books about the American West, with Mark Kenyon
- Sebastian Junger – On Meaning, Mortality, and Belonging
- Rebecca Clarren – “The Cost of Free Land”
- Nick Offerman – Empathy, Nuance, & Good Hard Work
- Hampton Sides Returns: The Wild and Tragic Tale of Captain James Cook
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
M&P IS LISTENER-SUPPORTED VIA PATREON
Dillon Osleger – Trails, Maps, and the Hidden Stories of Our Public Lands
Dillon Osleger wears a lot of hats: geologist, professional mountain biker for Specialized, trail builder, public lands policy analyst and advocate, and now first-time author. His debut book, Trail Work: Restoring the Paths and Stories of America’s Public Lands, blends science, history, and personal reflection into a look at our relationship with the places we love. It’s already earned praise from the likes of Bill McKibben, Robert Moor, and former M&P guest Rick Ridgeway. And for whatever it’s worth, I loved it as well. I’ve read a ton of books on public lands, and this one filled in many of the gaps in my knowledge on this super-important and timely issue.
Raised by two geologists who moved the family from Riverside to Austin to Northern California, Dillon grew up idolizing mountain legends like Rick Ridgeway and Jeremy Jones, and he wanted nothing more than to spend his life outside. He was, by his own account, a poor student—right up until a NOLS course at fifteen showed him he could learn through the things he was passionate about. That realization helped transform him from a 2.9-GPA high school student all the way to a scientist who holds a master’s in Earth Science, with a lot of biking, skiing, surfing, and fishing along the way.
We recorded this at Mountainfilm in Telluride, the morning after Dillon shared a stage with literary heroes like Kevin Fedarko. We cover his mountain upbringing, how mountain biking became his way of finding clarity, why he thinks the traditional classroom can be challenging for many curious and energetic kids, and the deep connections between public lands and the rural communities around them. We also get into the writers who shaped him—John McPhee, Wendell Berry, James Rebanks—and his belief that the world is far more purple than the red-and-blue map suggests. We also talk a lot about the process of writing his book and some of the biggest lessons learned from tackling such an ambitious project. More than anything, this is a conversation about loving a place enough to do the work for it.
I loved this one. Enjoy!
Photos courtesy of Dillon Osleger
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
…or wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:



RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing Dillon Osleger and highlighting TNC Colorado
- 6:12 – A nervous morning
- 8:39 – How Dillon got people interested in his book
- 11:12 – Growing up moving around
- 14:34 – Path to college
- 16:28 – Finding the right academia
- 19:16 – Mountain biking
- 23:30 – The question Dillon was trying to answer
- 28:12 – An overview of maps
- 34:04 – The Thomas Fire
- 37:12 – Public lands threats
- 42:30 – Real names
- 47:39 – Finding your why
- 51:13 – Bringing in jujitsu
- 53:16 – How writing the book changed Dillon
- 56:38 – The response to the book
- 1:02:29 – Book recs
- 1:09:13 – A purple world
Information Referenced:
- Dillon Osleger and his new book, Trail Work
- Kevin Fedarko, whom Dillon was onstage with at Mountainfilm
- Rick Ridgeway on M&P
- Jeremy Jones and Ridgeway were heroes of Dillon’s. He also read a lot of Vonnegut when he was young.
- NOLS
- “Not every geologist is a rock climber, but every rock climber is a geologist.”
- Montana State University in Bozeman
- “Imagine Sisyphus happy.” Albert Camus
- Bart’s Books, an outdoor bookstore
- Andy Mann, ocean photographer who attended Mountainfilm
- Thomas Fire, California
- Paul Hendricks on M&P
- Book recs: John McPhee (Basin and Range, Assembling California, Draft No. 4, Tabula Rasa, Oranges), James Rebanks, Wendell Berry, Cosmos by Alexander Humboldt
- Helen Rebanks on M&P
- TNC Colorado
- Rob Addington (TNC Colorado) on M&P
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Kristine Tompkins – Nothing to Lose
- Adam Cramer – Fighting for the Future of Public Lands
- Paul Hendricks – The Conservation Alliance and the Future of Public Lands
- Kevin Grange – The Secret Lives of Grizzlies
- Mark Easter – Food, Soil, and Our Planet’s Future
- Doug Peacock – 50 Years of Fighting for the Grizzlies
- Dr. Sara Dant Returns – “Losing Eden: An Environmental History of the American West”
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
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Distance Champions – TNC’s “On the Move” Podcast (M&P Special Episode)
My longtime partners and collaborators at The Nature Conservancy recently launched a great podcast series called On the Move, hosted by TNC storyteller Leah Palmer. It’s all about wild animals, their migrations, and the people working to keep those journeys wild and free. If you’re a longtime Mountain & Prairie listener, then many of these people, places, and conservation issues will be familiar to you. In fact, a few of the experts you’ll hear over the course of the full series are past M&P guests, including Sammy Matsaw Jr., Kelsey Molloy, and Nancy Fishbein.
So I’m excited to share one of my favorite episodes today: Episode 4, “Distance Champions.” This episode is about creatures of the sky—Sandhill cranes, Greater Sage-Grouse, Wilson’s phalaropes—and it digs into why these birds migrate, how new tracking tech reveals where they actually go, and what stands in their way. You’ll also hear from Ted Floyd of the American Birding Association, a good friend of TNC here in Colorado.
Big thanks to The Nature Conservancy for creating such an interesting and engaging podcast series. If you enjoy it, go subscribe to On the Move and listen to the whole series.
Here’s Leah Palmer and “Distance Champions.” Enjoy!
SUBSCRIBE to On the Move
Apple Podcasts & Spotify
Images courtesy of The Nature Conservancy, © Erica Simek Sloniker/TNC
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:



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Holly Bamford & Marshall Johnson – A 30-Year Vision for North America’s Grasslands
This is a live episode recorded at the 2026 Great Plains Stakeholder Workshop, hosted by the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation. The workshop brought together many of the country’s leading grasslands conservationists, scientists, funders, and policy experts to tackle a huge question: what would it look like to create a bold, practical, long-term plan for conserving North America’s grasslands over the next 30 years?
My guests are two people helping to lead that effort: Dr. Holly Bamford, Chief Conservation Officer at the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation (known as NFWF for short), and Marshall Johnson, Chief Conservation Officer for the National Audubon Society. Both have spent years working at the intersection of science, conservation, agriculture, and partnership-building, and both bring a realistic but hopeful perspective to the future of the Great Plains.
In this conversation, we dig into the current state of the Great Plains and grasslands conservation more broadly– from grassland loss and declining bird populations to the creative partnerships helping ranchers, nonprofits, businesses, and government agencies work together toward solutions. We discuss the importance of voluntary conservation, the complicated economics facing ranching communities, the role of programs like the Farm Bill, and why grass-based agriculture and healthy wildlife habitat are far more interconnected than many people realize. Holly and Marshall also share stories from their own lives that explain how they each became so deeply connected to these landscapes– from prairie chicken blinds in Minnesota to the wide-open grasslands of the American West.
More than anything, this conversation is about long-term thinking. What does it look like to create a 30-year vision for one of the most ecologically important and underappreciated landscapes in North America? What gives these conservation leaders hope? And what keeps them up at night? There’s a lot of realism in this discussion, but there’s also a surprising amount of optimism, practicality, and momentum. I learned a ton from this conversation, and I think you will too. Be sure to check out the episode notes for links to the organizations, initiatives, and resources we discuss throughout the episode.
Thank you again to the amazing team at the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation for inviting me to moderate this discussion.
Headshots from NFWF and Audubon, On-stage photo courtesy of the Montana Grazing Lands Coalition.
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RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing a live convo
- 3:25 – Looking behind instead of ahead
- 5:40 – Why grasslands
- 6:57 – The state of grasslands today
- 10:22 – The meadowlark
- 12:47 – Rancher relationships
- 22:41 – Money is the key
- 25:20 – Farm Bill feelings
- 29:15 – Prairie potholes
- 36:20 – Voluntary conservation easements
- 39:24 – Accounting for change
- 43:41 – Data collection
- 48:40 – The next 30 years
Information Referenced:
- National Fish and Wildlife Foundation
- Audubon Society
- Holly Bamford, Ph.D.
- Marshall Johnson
- Prairie Chicken blinds allow grassland visitors to see the mating rituals of prairie birds, like the Greater Prairie Chicken in Minnesota.
- Chris West and Seth Gallagher, staff reps with the National Fish and Wildlife Foundation.
- JE Canyon Ranch, one of the largest ranches and wildlife preserves in the West.
- Plowprints, which measure grassland conversion.
- A meadowlark singing. The best thing ever.
- It All Turns on Affection, Wendell Berry’s musings on boomers and stickers.
- Prairie pothole region
- Science paper from 2019 outlining the decline in North American birds
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Chris Pague – Stories, Science, and the Southern High Plains
- Sara Domek – The Science and Story of Wyoming’s Wildlife Migration
- Sean Claffey – A Resilient Vision for Sagebrush Country
- Adam Cramer – Fighting for the Future of Public Lands
- Dr. Sara Dant Returns – “Losing Eden: An Environmental History of the American West”
- Corissa Busse – Tribal-Led Buffalo Restoration in the American West and Beyond
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
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Hillary Rosner – Why Wildlife Needs Room to Roam
Hillary Rosner is an award-winning journalist and author whose work combines science, storytelling, and the natural world. She’s been writing about environmental issues for decades, with bylines in publications like The New York Times, The Atlantic, and National Geographic. Her new book, Roam: Wild Animals and the Race to Repair Our Fractured World, explores one of the most urgent—and often overlooked—challenges in conservation: the loss of connectivity across the landscape, and what that means for the movement and survival of wildlife.
Like so many fascinating people, Hillary’s path into this work wasn’t a straight line. She grew up in New York City, far from the wide-open spaces she now writes about, but spent formative summers in the Adirondacks and Berkshires that quietly shaped her connection to nature. After getting her start in fast-paced daily journalism at places like the New York Post and The Village Voice, she realized she wanted something deeper—slower, more immersive storytelling. That shift eventually led her west to Boulder, where she pursued environmental studies and built a career focused on long-form environmental journalism.
In this conversation, Hillary and I dig into the big ideas behind Roam, including why movement is so essential to life on Earth and how human infrastructure—from highways to fences—has fractured the natural world. We talk about surprising barriers to wildlife, like roads that even birds won’t cross, and explore solutions ranging from wildlife corridors to collaborative conservation efforts with local communities. We also get into the realities of modern journalism, the importance of “bearing witness” in difficult times, and why curiosity, empathy, and action are still the most powerful tools we have for building a more connected and hopeful future.
I loved the book, and I loved this conversation. Hope you enjoy both as much as I did!
Photos courtesy of Patagonia: Header image © Florian Schulz, headshot © Hillary Rosner
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RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing Hillary Rosner and highlighting TNC Colorado
- 6:09 – Book congrats and growing up in NYC
- 9:03 – The heading West bug
- 11:20 – More long-form journalism
- 13:36 – Making money in journalism
- 16:41 – Ted Scripps fellowship
- 19:01 – Patagonia publishing
- 21:20 – Roads are only good for people
- 28:20 – Why this should matter to you
- 35:23- SLOSS
- 38:39 – Doing everything you can
- 40:52 – Fence removal project
- 43:50 – Virtual fencing
- 44:57 – Author’s note
- 49:47 – Poignant
- 53:16 – Out of the box thinkers
- 58:15 – Book recs
- 1:00:36 – Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Hillary Rosner and her new book, Roam
- The Village Voice
- The New York Post
- Hillary in New York Magazine
- News deserts
- Boulder Reporting Lab
- Ted Scripps environmental journalism fellowship
- RE:PUBLIC
- Chris Keyes on M&P
- Nick Mott and Elliott Woods on M&P (Both Scripps fellows)
- Wallis Annenberg wildlife crossing in CA
- Katharine Hayhoe on M&P and her book Saving Us
- The Nature Fix
- Pete McBride on M&P
- Hillary’s story about caribou in the Atlantic
- Gary Tabor
- SLOSS
- Getting Green Done
- Yvon Chouinard on M&P
- Absaroka Fence Initiative
- Fence ecology
- Virtual fences
- bioGraphic
- Book recs: The Song of the Dodo, The Forgotten Door
- TNC Colorado
- Pete McBride on the Colorado River
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Sara Domek – The Science and Story of Wyoming’s Wildlife Migration
- Kevin Grange – The Secret Lives of Grizzlies
- Kristine Tompkins – Nothing to Lose
- Mark Easter – Food, Soil, and Our Planet’s Future
- Doug Peacock – 50 Years of Fighting for the Grizzlies
- Chris Pague – Stories, Science, and the Southern High Plains
- Curt Meine – Aldo Leopold’s Life, Work, and Enduring Legacy
- Dr. Sara Dant Returns – “Losing Eden: An Environmental History of the American West”
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
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Miriam Horn – George Schaller and the Transformation of Wildlife Biology
Miriam Horn is an award-winning journalist and author whose work lives at the intersection of conservation, food production, and the people working—often quietly and pragmatically—to hold those worlds together. Many listeners will recognize her from her excellent book Rancher, Farmer, Fisherman, a title that’s come up repeatedly on this podcast for its nuanced look at how working lands and conservation can coexist. But her new book, Homesick for a World Unknown: The Life of George B. Schaller, zooms out to tell the story of a man whose influence touches nearly every corner of modern wildlife biology.
If you’re like I was before reading this book, you may not fully appreciate the importance of George Schaller and his work—but it’s hard to overstate his impact. If you’re working in wildlife science today—whether studying elk in Wyoming or snow leopards in Central Asia—you’re building on a foundation he helped create. He helped shift wildlife biology away from specimen collection and distant population management toward long-term, immersive observation rooted in patience and deep respect for animals in their natural environments. And beyond his own research, his legacy lives on through the countless scientists he mentored around the world, many of whom went on to lead conservation efforts in their home countries.
In this conversation, Miriam and I explore Schaller’s remarkable life and the long arc of his influence—from his early days in Alaska to his groundbreaking work with gorillas, big cats, and high-altitude species across the globe. We talk about the tension between conservation and human needs, the role of humility and local knowledge in effective wildlife protection, and what Miriam learned after nearly a decade spent researching and writing this biography. It’s a wide-ranging conversation about one man’s life, but also about the bigger question of how humans can live responsibly within the natural world.
Homesick for a World Unknown is available at your favorite bookseller now. I hope you enjoy this conversation and the book!
Headshot © Ahna Tessler 2025
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A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:



RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing Miriam Horn and highlighting the Well Done Foundation
- 6:17 – Feedback from George
- 10:00 – Beginning a decade of work
- 15:52 – Getting George to open up
- 19:52 – A bit of George’s biography
- 24:39 – Becoming a charismatic megafauna
- 26:53 – Putting the gun down
- 31:03 – Humility and hard-headedness
- 33:29 – Seeking the full picture
- 36:57 – Husband and wife team
- 41:00 – Not protective parents
- 47:30 – George and Kay to the modern-day
- 52:39 – How George changed Miriam
- 59:11 – The writers Miriam admires
- 1:04:54 – Words of wisdom
Information Referenced:
- Miriam Horn
- Homesick for a World Unknown: The Life of George B. Schaller
- Another book by Miriam: Rancher, Farmer, Fisherman
- Peter Matthiessen’s The Snow Leopard
- Stones of Silence, George’s chronicles of his journeys in the Himalayas
- Sheenjek expedition, which created the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge
- Dian Fossey Gorilla Fund
- The Mountain Gorilla by George B. Schaeller
- Nate Schweber on M&P and This America of Ours
- Kris Tompkins on M&P
- Rick Ridgeway on M&P
- More on George Schaller
- Biographer recs: Jennifer Homans (Mr. B), Stacy Schiff, Kai Bird (American Prometheus, basis for the movie, Oppenheimer), Vladimir Nabokov
- Book recs: Lewis Thomas’ The Lives of a Cell and Medusa and the Snail
- Global Conservation
- Well Done Foundation
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Kristine Tompkins – Nothing to Lose
- Mark Easter – Food, Soil, and Our Planet’s Future
- Doug Peacock – 50 Years of Fighting for the Grizzlies
- Rick Ridgeway – Purpose-Driven Adventurer
- Nate Schweber – A Forgotten Chapter of American Conservation
- Mauricia Baca – An Empathetic Approach to Nevada’s Conservation Challenges
- Chris Pague – Stories, Science, and the Southern High Plains
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
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Meriwether Hardie – What You Learn Riding Across the West
Meriwether Hardie has built a life around long, ambitious horseback journeys through remote landscapes, and she uses those adventures as a way to better understand land, food, and the people who depend on both. In her early twenties, she rode for a year through South America, and this past summer, she spent five months traveling solo across the American West with two horses and a dog. Along the way, she’s not just covering ground, she’s asking questions, listening closely, and connecting with agricultural producers and rural communities. That combination of adventure, inquiry, and agriculture is also at the core of her professional work, which has spanned everything from small-scale producers to global supply chains, including time with Rainforest Alliance, all focused on building more resilient, equitable food systems.
She grew up in Vermont, splitting time between her parents’ farms—one centered around horses, the other around commercial beekeeping—which gave her both independence and a deep love of working landscapes. As a teenager, she attended a NOLS course in the Wind River Range, which cemented her love for wild places and outdoor education. That foundation eventually led her west to Colorado College, where she studied environmental science and journalism. After college, she received a competitive environmental journalism fellowship that funded her first major horseback expedition through Argentina—an experience that helped define her path and solidified her belief that storytelling can be a powerful tool for understanding complex issues.
In this conversation, we talk about all of that, with a special focus on her most recent ride across the West—what it actually takes to pull off a trip like that, the risks and realities of traveling solo on horseback, and the incredible generosity she encountered along the way. We also talk about what she learned from the farmers and ranchers she met, from the challenges they face to the unexpected pockets of hope she discovered. This is a conversation about big, wild adventures, but it’s also about the act of showing up, moving slowly through landscape, asking good questions, and listening to people who don’t usually get heard. Enjoy!
Photos by Samuel Gardner
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
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A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:



RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing Meriwether Hardie and highlighting the Freeflow Institute
- 5:36 – Growing up between two Vermont farms
- 8:15 – Bee stings
- 9:42 – An old, free pony
- 13:25 – Being a different kind of kid
- 15:23 – Colorado College
- 18:12 – NOLS in the family
- 21:58 – The badge of honor that is being a NOLS instructor
- 25:36 – First horse trip
- 30:04 – Asking for help
- 32:34 – Post-Bill McKibben grant
- 34:34 – Meriwether’s journey across South America
- 40:24 – How the journey changed her
- 43:22 – Her current adventure
- 47:40 – Burnout
- 49:08 – Injury and change
- 53:55 – Navigating vast landscapes
- 1:00:29 – The best of humanity
- 1:07:04 – Celebrating generational knowledge
- 1:08:38 – The book process
- 1:17:26 – Expectations vs. reality
- 1:22:05 – Book recs
- 1:28:00 – Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Meriwether Hardie’s Instagram
- NOLS
- Two recent NOLS grads on M&P, Sebastian Junger and Kate Williams
- Outward Bound
- Bill McKibben
- Rainforest Alliance
- The book Meriwether reached for during her injury, The Artist’s Way
- Meriwether’s five months on horseback, interviewing farmers and ranchers, and her trip through South America.
- onX
- The Blue Plate
- Book recs: Four Thousand Weeks, The Cost of Free Land, Buffalo for the Broken Heart, Cheap Land Colorado, Bird by Bird
- Tim Ferriss’s podcast
- Rebecca Clarren on M&P
- Yvon Chouinard on M&P
- Freeflow Institute
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Kristine Tompkins – Nothing to Lose
- Kami Bakken – How to Build a Life and Career in the West’s Wide-Open Spaces
- Mark Easter – Food, Soil, and Our Planet’s Future
- Ivan McClellan Returns – From Behind the Lens to Center of the Arena
- Kate Williams – Leadership Lessons from the CEO of 1% for the Planet
- Stella Maria Baer – Moons, Horses, and New Mexico Light
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
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Jazmine Ulloa – The Untold History of El Paso
Jazmine Ulloa is a national reporter who covers immigration for The New York Times and is the author of the new book El Paso: Five Families and One Hundred Years of Blood, Migration, Race, and Memory. It’s a sweeping, deeply researched look at one of the most overlooked regions in the American West. Born and raised in El Paso, Jazmine brings both a journalist’s discipline and a personal connection to the story, weaving together archival research, oral histories, and her own family background to explore how this border community has shaped the broader story of the United States.
What makes Jazmine’s work especially compelling is the path she took to get here. She started reporting as a teenager, crossing the border with her grandmother to interview families affected by violence… real, high-stakes journalism while she was still in high school. From there, she worked her way up through local papers across Texas, covering crime, courts, and immigration, eventually moving into national political reporting and earning her role at The New York Times. It’s a career built the old-fashioned way: curiosity, extreme hard work, and a clear sense of purpose.
In this conversation, Jazmine and I focus on the long, layered history of El Paso and the surrounding borderlands—how people, cultures, and economies have moved through this region for generations, shaping the Southwest in ways that often go unrecognized. More than anything, this is a conversation about people and place. By following the lives of five families across generations, Jazmine brings a human lens to a complicated history, one that is rich with resilience, identity, and connection, and that adds real depth to our understanding of the American West.
This is a thoughtful conversation with a very smart, purpose-driven author that adds some much needed historical context to this current moment in American culture. I think you’ll enjoy it and learn a lot.
Photos courtesy of Penguin Random House, headshot © Nina Shubin.
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
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A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing Jazmine Ulloa and highlighting Good News and book recs
- 5:47 – How Jazmine ended up in El Paso
- 12:34 – Pursuing journalism as a career
- 18:19 – Going to the border for the story
- 23:02 – Getting to the New York Times
- 27:09 – Jazmine’s speciality
- 30:27 – Dealing with trauma
- 32:38 – Getting into Jazmine’s book
- 36:01 – Fear of the unknown
- 36:55 – 2019 El Paso shooting
- 41:29 – Seeing history reflected in the present
- 46:56 – Leaning into the complexity
- 49:33 – Focusing on family
- 54:20 – Knowing her hometown better?
- 57:44 – Time management at its best
- 1:00:24 – Book recs
- 1:02:34 – Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Jazmine Ulloa
- El Paso: Five Families and One Hundred Years of Blood, Migration, Race, and Memory
- NY Times review of El Paso
- Patricia Monroe, journalism teacher in El Paso that Jazmine learned from
- Jazmine published in the Boston Globe and the Los Angeles Times.
- 2019 El Paso shooting and where to find more info about the shooting
- Juan Crow Laws
- A young woman dressed as a Soldadera, wearing a belt of bullets
- Book recs: Like Water For Chocolate, The Devil’s Highway by Luis Alberto Urrea , Slaughterhouse Five, Midnight in Mexico
- Jazmine interviewed while visiting the high school that sparked her career in journalism
- Other reporting on El Paso “femicides”
- Ed’s Good News From the American West newsletter. Sign up!
- Ed’s book recs email. Sign up!
- Find M&P on LinkedIn or on Instagram @mtnprairie.
- Biographies and memoirs Patreon episode.
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Douglas Brinkley – Exploring the Past to Find Inspiration for the Future
- Beatriz Soto – Bridging Cultural Divides & Building Equitable Communities
- Mauricia Baca – An Empathetic Approach to Nevada’s Conservation Challenges
- Adam Cramer – Fighting for the Future of Public Lands
- Helen Rebanks – “The Farmer’s Wife” – Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Sammy Matsaw Jr. – Salmon, Sovereignty, and the Long Work of Healing
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
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Pete McBride – Witness to Water
Pete McBride is a photographer, filmmaker, and author whose work has taken him all over the world, but at the center of it all is a river much closer to home: the Colorado River. He’s been a frequent guest on this podcast over the years, and his work has consistently offered one of the most thoughtful and visually compelling perspectives on the landscapes and water systems that define the American West. His latest book, Witness to Water: One Photographer’s Mission to Defend the Colorado River, is a departure from his previous photo-driven projects—it’s all words, and it brings together two decades of stories, observations, and hard-earned insight from time spent on and around rivers.
In this conversation, Pete and I talk about the Colorado River—where things stand today, what he’s seeing across the basin, and why this moment feels especially urgent. We discuss drought, over-allocation, and the complicated, often frustrating realities of water management in the West. But we also zoom out, exploring how Pete’s perspective has evolved over time—from adventure photographer chasing stories around the globe to someone deeply committed to telling one layered, long-term story about a single, essential river.
We also spend quite a bit of time on the more personal side of Pete’s new book. He opens up about family, the influence of his parents, and a period of his life that didn’t match the outward success people might assume. It’s honest, vulnerable, and, like the best stories, deeply relatable. As always, there are plenty of wild experiences and hard-earned lessons woven throughout, but what stands out most is Pete’s willingness to share the full picture—the wins, the struggles, and everything in between.
Pete is also a talented musician, and the song you heard at the beginning is him playing. And at the end of the episode, you can hear the full song. Be sure to check out the episodes for timestamps and links to everything we discuss, and be sure to grab a copy of Witness to Water.
Photos courtesy of Pete McBride
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
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Spotify
…or wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing Pete McBride and highlighting TNC Colorado
- 5:43 – The “all words” book
- 8:51 – How Pete’s dad ended up in Colorado
- 10:50 – Resisting the Colorado River
- 13:36 – Working in India
- 18:45 – Watching the water run out
- 22:51 – Len and Pete’s horrific death march
- 27:09 – Combining the reservoirs
- 29:31 – The deadline
- 35:17 – How to get informed on the water conversations
- 39:28 – Adventurers of the Year
- 44:35 – Nobody knows what they’re doing
- 49:57 – Not nervous
- 51:53 – Flying nerves
- 55:41 – The most scared Pete has ever been
- 59:24 – Djibouti
- 1:02:02 – Discussing judgment and wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Pete McBride
- Pete’s new book, Witness to Water
- Pete’s Grand Canyon book, The Grand Canyon: Between River and Rim
- Lost Marbles Ranch
- Ganges film (Holy (un)Holy River)
- Mike DeHoff on M&P
- Natives Outdoors
- Len and Pete on the Yampa
- Lake Mead and Lake Powell (with the Grand Canyon in between)
- Pete’s recent op-ed in Time magazine on the deadline for figuring out water usage in the Colorado River Basin
- Where The Water Goes
- Encounters with the Archdruid
- Sebastian Junger on M&P
- David James Duncan on M&P
- TNC Colorado and Taylor Hawes, Celene Hawkins, and Lorelei Cloud on M&P discussing the Colorado River Basin
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Yvon Chouinard – The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
- Kristine Tompkins – Nothing to Lose
- Nick Offerman – Empathy, Nuance, & Good Hard Work
- Douglas Brinkley – Exploring the Past to Find Inspiration for the Future
- Doug Peacock – 50 Years of Fighting for the Grizzlies
- Rick Ridgeway – Purpose-Driven Adventurer
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
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Sebastian Junger – On Meaning, Mortality, and Belonging
Sebastian Junger is an award-winning journalist, a New York Times bestselling author, and an Academy Award–nominated filmmaker. Regular listeners are surely familiar with his work, as I’ve mentioned his books a ridiculous number of times on this podcast over the years—especially his book Tribe, which has had a lasting influence on how I think about community, purpose, and the kinds of experiences that give people meaning.
So for Episode 300, I was excited to sit down with Sebastian for a real, in-person conversation.
Sebastian is the author of The Perfect Storm, War, Tribe, Freedom, and most recently In My Time of Dying, and he’s spent decades reporting from war zones and writing about how humans behave under extreme pressure.
In this conversation, we start with his early experience with NOLS and use that as a jumping-off point to explore a theme that runs through much of his work: why small groups facing real adversity create such strong bonds, and why those experiences often feel more meaningful than anything in modern, comfortable life.
From there, we get into boxing, jiu-jitsu, and the idea that environments with real consequences tend to strip away status and surface-level differences, leaving people to be judged on effort, character, and how they show up for others.
We also spend a good amount of time on his recent powerful book, In My Time of Dying—including the near-death experience that led to it, how he processed it afterward, and what it changed about how he thinks about fear, mortality, and what actually matters in life.
We talk about parenting, contentment versus happiness, and how different phases of life demand different kinds of attention and energy. And toward the end, we get into writing, his new Substack project (that I highly recommend), smartphones, and why he’s chosen to opt out of many versions of modern technology, including social media.
This one covers a lot of ground, but it all ties back to a few core questions: what makes a life feel meaningful, what we lose when things get too easy, and how to stay connected to the people around us.
We recorded this in Aspen, the morning before Sebastian was scheduled to speak at the Aspen Institute, and I’m grateful he took the time to do it—especially on a such a busy day.
As always, check out the episode notes for a full list of topics and links to everything we discuss.
Thanks for listening, I hope you enjoy!
Header image © Joshua Simpson, headshot © Christopher Anderson
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
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Spotify
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A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Intro + thank you to our sponsors
- 6:54 – Introducing Sebastian Junger, another NOLS grad
- 11:33 – A sense of duty
- 14:22 – The melting pot of a boxing gym
- 17:29 – Developing toughness
- 20:29 – Happiness vs. contentment
- 26:46 – A nice, summer day on Cape Cod
- 33:08 – The loneliest moment of Sebastian’s life
- 37:46 – Processing the whole experience
- 40:57 – No blessing without blood
- 43:46 – Can’t hide from death
- 46:54 – Being in the moment (benefit of a flip phone)
- 53:15 – Sebastian on Substack
- 1:00:09 – Dealing with the angry internet
- 1:02:05 – A different type of book rec segment
- 1:04:21 – What’s new and next for Sebastian
Information Referenced:
- Sebastian Junger
- Don’t worry, here’s your Tribe link.
- NOLS
- Scott Fisher, one of Sebastian’s NOLS instructors, who died on Mount Everest in 1996.
- Anxious rumination
- Sebastian’s most recent book, In My Time of Dying
- Sebastian on Joe Rogan
- And Sebastian on Substack (His piece —Young Men and How Democrats Lost Them—which was referenced by Ed in this conversation.)
- Another conversation about the plight of modern men and boys
- Pieces by Sebastian in the National Review
- Sebastian reviews new passages every week on his TRIBE Substack to dig into why they were so damn good.
- The TRIBE Substack!
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Yvon Chouinard – The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
- Kristine Tompkins – Nothing to Lose
- Nick Offerman – Empathy, Nuance, & Good Hard Work
- Douglas Brinkley – Exploring the Past to Find Inspiration for the Future
- Doug Peacock – 50 Years of Fighting for the Grizzlies
- Jason Gardner Returns – Fire, Leadership, and What Really Matters
- Sammy Matsaw Jr. – Salmon, Sovereignty, and the Long Work of Healing
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
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Darcy Chenoweth – Helping the Helpers
Darcy Chenoweth is a Montana-based Psychiatric Mental Health Nurse Practitioner whose career sits at the intersection of medicine, trauma recovery, and the outdoor world. Darcy works with individuals and organizations—especially those in high-stress helping professions such as first responders, healthcare workers, and other frontline roles—to address burnout, trauma exposure, and the long-term impacts of stress. Her work blends psychotherapy, medication management, and practical tools that help people metabolize the intense experiences that often come with caring for others.
Darcy grew up in Colorado’s Front Range mountains, and later moved north to Missoula for college, drawn largely by the pull of the northern Rockies and the culture of Montana. Over the years, her life has included living off-grid in western Montana, working as an ER nurse in a small critical-access hospital, teaching backcountry emergency medicine around the world, and maintaining a parallel life as an artist working in ceramics.
Those experiences—especially her years in emergency medicine and mountain environments—shaped her understanding of how trauma and stress accumulate in people who dedicate their lives to helping others. Today, Darcy’s practice focuses on helping those individuals build awareness, resilience, and sustainable ways of engaging with difficult work while maintaining healthy lives outside of it.
In this conversation, Darcy and I talk about the hidden drivers of burnout in helping professions, why community is essential for metabolizing trauma, and how modern life—despite all its conveniences—often strips away the friction and connection that humans need to stay mentally healthy. We also discuss the role of nature, trust, and shared experience in healing, along with Darcy’s work supporting mountain communities through organizations like Mountain Muskox, which helps people process grief and loss connected to accidents in the mountains.
Although much of Darcy’s work focuses on first responders and other helping professionals, the ideas she shares in this conversation are relevant to anyone navigating stress, hardship, or big life transitions. It’s a wide-ranging discussion about how humans process difficulty and how we can build lives and communities that help us come out stronger on the other side.
Be sure to check out the episode notes for links to Darcy’s practice, her work with Mountain Muskox, and several of the books and resources we discuss. Enjoy!
Photos courtesy of Darcy Chenoweth
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
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Spotify
…or wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing Darcy Chenoweth and highlighting M&P supporters
- 6:32 – Rollinsville, Colorado and skiing
- 8:57 – Outdoors influence
- 10:58 – Darcy’s plan at 17
- 12:39 – Adjusting to Montana
- 15:00 – Western medicine forays
- 17:47 – And a foray into ceramics and art
- 20:00 – How a compassionate person compartmentalizes
- 23:37 – What is burnout?
- 28:49 – Darcy’s practice
- 32:17 – The value of community
- 38:20 – Finding real meaning in the real world
- 42:13 – Is action the anecdote?
- 46:01 – Alcohol advice
- 48:38 – And social media advice
- 50:20 – The change that is being a mother
- 52:50 – Mountain Muskox
- 55:28 – Darcy’s role models
- 58:39 – Loss of structures
- 1:02:12 – Book recs and parting words
Information Referenced:
- Darcy Chenoweth
- Aerie Backcountry Medicine
- Moral injury and a podcast episode considering moral injury in the pharmacy arena.
- Laura McGladrey on psychological first aid
- Responder Alliance and the stress continuum
- Tribe (a reflection on community)
- Hilary Oliver’s Substack
- Outdoors mental health resources: Mountain Muskox, Soar
- Darcy’s role models: Sarah Hueniken, Thomas Hübl, Bell Hooks, Bill Kittredge
- Book recs: Ceremony, Wendell Berry’s Citizenship Papers, The Myth of Normal, The Wild Edge of Sorrow
- TNC Colorado
- And a few M&P + TNC conversations
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Dr. Eric Arzubi – A New Approach to Solving the West’s Mental Health Crisis
- Stella Maria Baer – Moons, Horses, and New Mexico Light
- Logan Maxwell Hagege Returns – On Taking Action & Finding Balance
- Mauricia Baca – An Empathetic Approach to Nevada’s Conservation Challenges
- Scott Hulet: Reading + Writing + Surfing + Fishing + Traveling
- David Cronenwett – Lessons from Jiu-Jitsu, On and Off the Mats
- Helen Rebanks – “The Farmer’s Wife” – Live at the Old Salt Festival
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
M&P IS LISTENER-SUPPORTED VIA PATREON
Our 10 Favorite Adventure Books, with Mark Kenyon
Mark Kenyon is no stranger to Mountain & Prairie listeners—he’s the author of That Wild Country, host of the Wired to Hunt podcast, and the newly minted Director of Conservation at MeatEater. He’s also one of the most voracious readers I know.
Every few years, Mark and I record a special episode where we discuss our top 10 favorite books in a particular category. The first one was our top 10 conservation books, then we explored our top 10 books about the American West—you can find links to both of those episodes in the show notes.
For this episode, we decided to discuss our top 10 adventure books—a category that both Mark and I love and have spent decades reading. We each brought five books that have stayed with us. Some are classics. Some are newer. Some are brutal. Some are unexpectedly funny. All of them reveal something about the human drive to embrace discomfort and move toward the unknown rather than away from it.
Yes, Mark and I love reading adventure books for entertainment and enjoyment, but we also both try to extract lessons from these wild stories that can be applied to our own lives. Whether we’re thinking about family, assessing risk, leadership, attitude, or simply not taking ourselves too seriously, there are important lessons to be learned from even the most outlandish adventures. So this conversation goes much deeper than a simple “Read this book because it’s good”—we discuss how these books have shaped us and how they continue to influence our thinking.
And if you like book recommendations, be sure to sign up for my bimonthly book recommendations email. For more than ten years, I’ve been sending one email every other month featuring books I recently read and highly recommend. The topics and genres are all over the place—and can admittedly be a little weird—but people seem to enjoy them, so I keep sending them. I just published my recommendations for January and February 2026, so you can sign up here if you’re interested.
Thanks so much for listening!
Photos courtesy of Mark Kenyon
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
…or wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing Mark Kenyon and highlighting North Bridger Bison
- 6:05 – Mark’s new role at MeatEater
- 13:03 – Mark’s next book timeline
- 18:28 – A new MeatEater podcast
- 21:43 – Getting into the books, starting with a Doug Peacock classic
- 28:17 – The first TR book Ed ever read
- 35:30 – The layers of Teddy Roosevelt
- 37:59 – Mark’s next pick, a more recent option
- 42:21 – Ed’s up, with a cliche?
- 47:55 – Bonus rec from Mark
- 50:33 – American Buffalo
- 1:03:03 – Navigating risk outdoors
- 1:07:48 – Pivoting to lighter adventure books
- 1:12:53 – An adventure book by a woman
- 1:17:57 – Mark’s last choice and a caribou conversation
- 1:26:35 – And Ed’s last choice, connecting with mountaineering
- 1:34:45 – Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Mark Kenyon
- Mark Kenyon on Instagram
- Ed and Mark’s 10 Conservation Books
- Ed and Mark’s 10 Books about the American West
- Mark’s new role as MeatEater’s Director of Conservation
- Backcountry Hunters and Anglers
- The first book Mark wrote: That Wild Country
- Mark’s OG brand, Wired To Hunt, was focused on deer hunting and is now a MeatEater podcast.
- Mark’s top adventure books: Grizzly Years, A Walk In The Park, The Emerald Mile, Deep Survival (the bonus), American Buffalo, A Walk In The Woods (a rollicking good time), Being Caribou and an extra bonus: Where Mountains Are Nameless
- Doug Peacock
- The Monkey Wrench Gang (Character Hayduke is based on Doug Peacock.)
- Ed interviewing Doug Peacock
- Peacock’s most recent book: Was It Worth It?
- Ed’s top adventure books: The River of Doubt (the first Theodore Roosevelt book he ever read), Endurance, In The Kingdom of Ice, The Way Out, Thirty Below, Kiss or Kill
- Tribe, always.
- NOLS Wilderness Guide
- MeatEater’s history of the fur trade
- Steve Rinella on Netflix
- Devon O’Neill on M&P
- Couple of heavier books to consider: The Adventurer’s Son, Missoula
- At Home, another Bill Bryson pick from Ed.
- Cassidy Randall on M&P
- Heather Hansman on M&P
- The porcupine caribou herd and its population and habitat struggles.
- Henry Rollins, punk rock.
- Mountaineering classics: Into Thin Air, No Shortcuts to the Top
- For more book recs, sign up for Ed’s bi-monthly book recommendations. January’s and February’s are ready.
- North Bridger Bison, supporters of M&P
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Yvon Chouinard – The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
- Hampton Sides Returns: The Wild and Tragic Tale of Captain James Cook
- John Vaillant – A Riveting Exploration of Fire
- Nicholas Triolo – What the Circuitous Path Reveals
- Douglas Brinkley – Exploring the Past to Find Inspiration for the Future
- Helen Rebanks – “The Farmer’s Wife” – Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Sonnie Trotter – On Flow, Family, and the Long Game
- Betsy Gaines Quammen Returns – Myths, Curiosity, and Human Connection (Live at the Old Salt Festival)
- Dr. Sara Dant Returns – “Losing Eden: An Environmental History of the American West”
- David Gessner Returns – “A Traveler’s Guide to the End of the World”
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
M&P IS LISTENER-SUPPORTED VIA PATREON
Stella Maria Baer – Moons, Horses, and New Mexico Light
Stella Maria Baer is a Santa Fe–based painter whose work is deeply rooted in land, light, and place. Known for her luminous depictions of moons, desert skies, horses, and wide-open Southwestern landscapes, Stella often makes her own pigments by hand—grinding rocks, dirt, and minerals into paint that quite literally contains the places she portrays. In addition to her studio practice, she teaches intimate workshops on natural pigment painting for land-based artists on her New Mexico property, creating space for people to reconnect with their creativity, their hands, and the earth itself.
Stella grew up in New Mexico in a family of artists—her mother was a weaver, her grandfather a photographer, her grandmother a sculptor—and spent summers on a Wyoming ranch that shaped her lifelong love of horses and open country. Though art was always around her, she initially pursued religion and philosophy, studying questions of desire, goodness, and the inherent value of land. Painting began not as a career move but as a private, prayerful practice—drawing birds in journals to quiet a busy mind. Over time, that contemplative discipline evolved into a full-time vocation, one that ultimately drew her back home to New Mexico after years on the East Coast, where she had found herself painting the desert from memory and longing.
In this conversation, we talk about that journey—from philosophy classrooms and sacred poetry to moon paintings and hand-ground pigments. Stella shares how critique shaped her work in unexpected ways, how motherhood has influenced both her art and her priorities, and the powerful story behind rescuing her horses from kill pens—animals that now carry deep personal meaning connected to her late mother. We also discuss the importance of play, silence, and being a beginner in a screen-saturated world. Stella rarely does interviews, so I’m especially grateful for her willingness to sit down and speak so thoughtfully and authentically about her life and work. It’s a reflective conversation about creativity, land, faith, and following one’s unique artistic curiosity.
I feel like Stella and I only scratched the surface of her curiosity, land ethic, and artistic journey, so I’ll look forward to having her back for another conversation in the future. But for now, I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did.
Photos courtesy of Stella Maria Baer; the header image is a painting by Stella titled “The Year of the Fire Horse“
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
…or wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Intro and sponsor highlight
- 7:50 – Stella’s origin story
- 12:00 – Art in Stella’s childhood
- 14:35 – Zoning in and drawing birds
- 19:39 – Religion and philosophy degrees
- 21:58 – Wendell Berry and the Bible
- 25:07 – Responding to critiques
- 27:42 – New Mexico love
- 33:01 – Why moons?
- 36:07 – Importance of play
- 44:12 – How having kids changed things
- 50:54 – Stella’s horses
- 55:28 – Stella’s workshops
- 1:02:08 – Book recs
- 1:06:00 – Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Stella Maria Baer
- Stella on Instagram
- How to make a bird life list. Also a great app to identify birds and a great board game to play featuring birds.
- James Prosek on M&P
- Wendell Berry
- Making your own paint
- Stella’s events
- Book recs: A Wrinkle In Time, The Divine Comedy (Dante’s Comedia), Braiding Sweetgrass
- Old Salt Festival June 2026
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Kelsey Morris Returns – Going All In on Art
- Live at the Amon Carter Museum – In Conversation with James Prosek and Spencer Wigmore
- Sammy Matsaw Jr. – Salmon, Sovereignty, and the Long Work of Healing
- Logan Maxwell Hagege Returns – On Taking Action & Finding Balance
- Kathie Sever – Chainstitching, Craftsmanship, and Cosmic Western Wear
- Live with the Cowboy Artists of America
- Helen Rebanks – “The Farmer’s Wife” – Live at the Old Salt Festival
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
M&P IS LISTENER-SUPPORTED VIA PATREON
A Joint Episode with The River Radius Podcast, featuring Sam Carter
Today’s conversation is a joint episode between Mountain & Prairie and The River Radius podcast. I’m joined by Sam Carter, the creator and host of The River Radius.
If you’re not already familiar with The River Radius, I give it my highest endorsement. It’s the most thoughtful and well-crafted show out there about rivers, water, and the people connected to them. Sam has built something genuinely special, and he’s someone I consider both a friend and a collaborator. I’ve learned a great deal from the way he approaches storytelling, curiosity, and place.
For this episode, instead of a traditional interview, this is a two-way conversation in which Sam and I interview each other—one we’re both releasing on our podcast feeds. Sam shared it on The River Radius feed earlier in January, and now I’m sharing it here. We talk about how our podcasts came to be, what keeps us curious after hundreds of episodes, and how rivers, landscapes, and long projects shape the way we think about life and work. We also get into writing, responsibility, attention, grief, ambition, and what it actually looks like to build something slowly and with intention. I think you’ll enjoy it.
As always, be sure to check the episode notes for detailed timestamps and links to everything we discuss. And I strongly encourage you to find The River Radius on your favorite podcast player, explore the archives, and give it a listen. Enjoy!
Photos courtesy of Sam Carter
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
…or wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Opening and sponsor highlight
- 5:46 – Ed introducing himself to Sam Carter and vice versa
- 9:19 – Why Sam started River Radius
- 11:49 – People are listening
- 16:36 – So … what is the Mountain & Prairie podcast?
- 24:04 – What do Ed’s daughters think of his job?
- 25:30 – How to make a podcast your full-time gig
- 32:47 – 2025 highlights from Sam
- 43:11 – Throughlines
- 48:24 – How Ed’s changed the way he looks at the world
- 51:36 – Ed’s 2025 highlights
- 59:15 – What’s the point of fly fishing?
- 1:03:11 – What’s in store for 2026?
- 1:12:17 – Sam and Ed’s production strategies
- 1:25:42 – Ed’s writing a book!
- 1:30:12 – What is a river for Ed Roberson?
- 1:33:56 – More questions for Ed from Sam’s listeners
- 1:36:57 – And questions for Sam from Ed
- 1:42:16 – Parting words
Information Referenced:
- River Radius
- KDUR, where Sam got his podcasting start.
- Returning Rapids Project
- Hampton Sides, Ed’s favorite author turned friend because of M&P.
- Sam’s favorite episode of River Radius with Rob Macfarlane and his book Is A River Alive?
- And another standout River Radius episode about the Tijuana river
- Klamath River River Radius episode
- Ed interviewing Yvon Chouindard on M&P
- Various mentioned Yvon books: Let My People Go Surfing, Pheasant Tale Simplicity (the new one), Simple Fly Fishing
- The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt, Ed’s inspiration for writing his book.
- Born To Run
- Freeflow Institute
- San Juan and Dolores Rivers, Sam’s choices for river runs.
- Book rec from Sam: One River by Wade Davis
- Central Grasslands Roadmap
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Sammy Matsaw Jr. – Salmon, Sovereignty, and the Long Work of Healing
- Devon O’Neil — On Nature’s Power and the Price of Adventure
- Chris Keyes – From Outside to RE:PUBLIC
- Brendan Leonard Returns – On Writing, Teaching, and Staying Weird
- David Cronenwett – Lessons from Jiu-Jitsu, On and Off the Mats
- George Hodgin Returns – On Risk-Taking, Leadership, and the Future of Cannabis
- Scott Hulet: Reading + Writing + Surfing + Fishing + Traveling
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
M&P IS LISTENER-SUPPORTED VIA PATREON
Kelsey Morris Returns – Going All In on Art
My guest today is Kelsey Morris, and this is her second time on the podcast—which feels long-overdue, because a lot has happened since we last talked.
When Kelsey first joined me nearly five years ago, she was balancing a full-time job while building her art career on the side. Shortly after that conversation, she did something many creative people dream about and very few actually do: she quit her job, changed her phone number, and went all-in on her work as an artist. Since then, she’s built a deeply recognizable visual style, taken on major commissions, and quietly carved out a career that sits at the intersection of Western art, wildlife, and the modern outdoor world.
In this conversation, we pick up right where we left off—talking about what it actually takes to make the leap into full-time creative work, how Kelsey thinks about balancing artistic curiosity with financial reality, and how discipline, professionalism, and showing up every day matter just as much as inspiration. We also talk about her evolving style, the pressure of deadlines, why some days the work just doesn’t click, and how she’s learned when to push through—and when to walk away.
We also get into some big life changes: closing her gallery, preparing for motherhood, spending time at her off-grid cabin in Alaska, and a major upcoming milestone—being selected to paint the 2026 covers of Field & Stream, one of the most iconic names in outdoor media.
Kelsey is thoughtful, grounded, funny, and refreshingly honest about the realities of creative work. This is a conversation about art, ambition, patience, and building a life that actually fits the work you want to do.
I really loved catching up with her—and I think you will too.
Photos courtesy of Kelsey Morris
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
…or wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing Kelsey Morris and sponsors
- 5:55 – Intro and going all in on art
- 10:42 – Marketing oneself
- 13:06 – Space to explore
- 15:57 – Individuality
- 20:05 – How to pay the bills
- 23:02 – Attention to detail
- 26:22 – Deadline torture
- 27:50 – The days when it’s not easy
- 32:40 – Milestones
- 37:04 – Who Kelsey looks up to
- 42:00 – The gallery
- 45:02 – Parenting
- 49:16 – The Alaska house
- 55:13 – Field & Stream exclusive
- 59:13 – Book recs
- 1:02:45 – Wrapping up
- 1:03:45 – Ed’s goodbye and thank yous
Information Referenced:
- Kelsey Morris
- Kelsey’s first M&P episode
- Kim Wiggins, artist inspo
- Kelsey on Instagram
- Logan Hagege on M&P
- Meateater and the audio series, for which Kelsey designed digital covers.
- Yvon Chouinard on M&P
- Kelsey’s inspirations: Maxwell Alexander, Thomas Blackshear, Jeremy Lipking, Mark Maggiori, Glenn Dean
- Steve Rinella’s fishing cabin in Alaska.
- Kelsey’s Alaska house videos on Instagram
- Field & Stream
- Field & Stream’s country revival
- Book recs: The Lonesome Dove series
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Yvon Chouinard – The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
- Iris Gardner – Living with Intention
- Helen Rebanks – “The Farmer’s Wife” – Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Cassidy Randall – The Untold Story of Denali’s First All-Women’s Ascent
- Cody Wellema – After the Fire, Before What’s Next
- Ivan McClellan Returns – From Behind the Lens to Center of the Arena
- Janie & Louise Roberson – Chatting It Up With Their Old Man
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
M&P IS LISTENER-SUPPORTED VIA PATREON
Jason Gardner Returns – Fire, Leadership, and What Really Matters

Jason Gardner is a retired Navy SEAL who now works as a top-level leadership instructor with Echelon Front. Over his thirty-year career in the SEAL teams, he served in combat operations in Somalia, Iraq, and Afghanistan, later becoming Command Master Chief of SEAL Team Five and Training Detachment. Since retiring from the Navy, Jason has worked with hundreds of organizations as a leadership instructor and strategic advisor, helping teams apply high-stakes leadership principles to business and life. He now lives in a remote corner of northeastern Washington with his wife, Iris, and their two children, where he spends his time working on their homestead and staying closely connected to the land.
This is Jason’s second time on the podcast, and I’d strongly recommend going back and listening to our first conversation from 2021, along with the episode I recorded with Iris. Those earlier interviews dig deeper into Jason’s career, his transition out of the military, and the longer arc of their family’s journey—context that adds real depth to what we talk about here.
This conversation unfolds in two parts. The first half hour or so is a firsthand account of the Hope Fire, a fast-moving wildfire that came dangerously close to destroying Jason and Iris’s property and home last summer. Jason walks through the experience in detail—what it’s like to prepare for evacuation, to work through exhaustion and uncertainty, and to rely on firefighters, neighbors, and community when the stakes are painfully real.
In the second part, we widen the lens. Jason reflects on the lessons that emerged from the fire—about leadership, humility, and responsibility—and connects them to his own personal evolution over the last several years. We talk about PTSD, quitting drinking, the role psychedelic-assisted therapy played in his healing, and how practices like mindfulness, curiosity, kindness, and gratitude have reshaped how he approaches both life and leadership. It’s an honest, grounded conversation about resilience, growth, and what it actually means to lead… starting with yourself.
As always, be sure to check out the episode notes below for a full list of everything we discussed, with timestamps for everything. There are also links to all of the books and resources that Jason mentions. Enjoy!
Photos courtesy of Jason and Iris Gardner
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
…or wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- WILDFIRE
- 7:01 – Intro, Jason’s brush with a wildfire
- 11:45 – Fire jumping ridgelines
- 14:05 – Enter USAA
- 16:36 – Community power
- 20:34 – Enter the brush hog
- 25:26 – Day three mental state
- 31:53 – A big damn deal
- 35:09 – A sense of deep pride
- LESSONS
- 40:59 – Applying on-the-line lessons to the business world
- 45:20 – The most important leadership trait
- 50:47 – Challenge coins
- 55:05 – A changed perspective
- 1:01:24 – Dealing with cockiness
- 1:05:30 – Jason’s mental health journey
- 1:11:43 – Quitting drinking
- 1:19:52 – Self-reflection
- 1:21:34 – Echelon Front Muster
- 1:27:06 – Book recs and wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Jason Gardner
- Jason on Instagram
- Jason’s first M&P episode
- Iris Gardner’s M&P episode
- 2025 Washington fires
- A skidgine
- Extreme ownership
- Hotshot firefighters
- Tribe
- Jefferson Fisher and strategies for managing ego.
- Peter Attia, Tim Ferriss
- In Waves and War
- Echelon Front Muster
- The Need to Lead
- Book recs: The Dichotomy of Leadership, Leadership Strategy and Tactics, Never Split the Difference, The Next Conversation, Remarkably Bright Creatures, Stormlight archive
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Iris Gardner – Living with Intention
- George Hodgin Returns – On Risk-Taking, Leadership, and the Future of Cannabis
- Cody Wellema – After the Fire, Before What’s Next
- Chris Keyes – From Outside to RE:PUBLIC
- Dr. Alan Townsend – Generosity & Curiosity in the Face of Tragedy
- “Good Fire, Bad Fire” – A Film and Discussion about Forest Health
- Curt Meine – Aldo Leopold’s Life, Work, and Enduring Legacy
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
M&P IS LISTENER-SUPPORTED VIA PATREON
Todd Ulizio – Farming, Attention, and a Life Well Rooted
Todd Ulizio is the co-owner of Two Bear Farm, an organic vegetable farm in Whitefish, Montana, that’s quietly become a cornerstone of the Flathead Valley’s local food community. Alongside his wife Rebecca, Todd has spent nearly two decades growing food, building soil, and figuring out how to make a small, values-driven farm work in a world that doesn’t always make it easy.
Todd’s path to farming was anything but direct. He grew up in Connecticut and followed a traditional educational and career path, eventually becoming an accountant at a prestigious Big Six firm. Experiencing success but not fulfillment, he walked away from the business world to study wildlife biology and worked on projects ranging from brown bears in Alaska to wolverines in Montana. Over time, he began to see a common thread: most of the problems facing wildlife are really problems about how humans use land—and food, he realized, is where people interact with land every single day.
In this conversation, Todd and I talk about that winding path—from accounting to wildlife biology to farming—and what it’s taught him about work, burnout, stewardship, and attention. We get into the realities of small-scale farming, the pressures of building a business with your spouse, the health wake-up call that forced him to rethink everything, and the quieter, more grounded philosophy that now shapes his life and work. This is a thoughtful, honest conversation about choosing a meaningful path, learning to let go of what you can’t control, and finding a way to stay rooted in a rapidly changing world.
Photos courtesy of Todd Ulizio and Two Bear Farm
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
…or wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Exciting announcement
- 2:33 – Intro
- 4:14 – Patreon + Sponsors + Old Salt
- 7:24 – Where Todd grew up
- 11:38 – Todd as a kid
- 13:07 – Off to college
- 17:34 – Ditching accounting
- 21:57 – How change felt
- 24:18 – Post University of Montana to Alaska
- 27:49 – Alaska takeaways
- 31:36 – Choosing farming
- 37:05 – What helped Todd make an impact
- 40:08 – A relationship forged in fire
- 43:32 – Doubts in the moment?
- 47:39 – Food system frustrations and burnout
- 52:43 – How to lighten up
- 1:01:07 – Dexter cows
- 1:02:34 – Always going and stillness
- 1:09:02 – The farm
- 1:14:56 – What’s next
- 1:18:06 – Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Two Bear Farm
- Student Conservation Association
- A Sand County Almanac, Braiding Sweetgrass and The Serviceberry are all books that led to Todd’s vision for making an impact on the environment.
- Curt Meine, an Aldo Leopold scholar, on M&P
- Ed’s book list
- How Todd learned to lighten up: The Four Agreements, Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior, The Emerald podcast
- Dexter cows
- The Farmers’ Stand
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Kelly Beevers – Connection, Collaboration, Conservation
- Helen Rebanks – “The Farmer’s Wife” – Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Mark Easter – Food, Soil, and Our Planet’s Future
- Kami Bakken – How to Build a Life and Career in the West’s Wide-Open Spaces
- Yvon Chouinard – The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
- Chris Keyes – From Outside to RE:PUBLIC
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
M&P IS LISTENER-SUPPORTED VIA PATREON
2025 Reads
A comprehensive list of every book I recommended in 2025, taken directly from my bimonthly book recommendations emails.
The Extinction of Experience: Being Human in a Disembodied World by Christine Rosen – Ever since watching the hoverboard scene in Back to the Future II, I’ve dreamed about the fun-filled technological wonders awaiting me at some distant point in the future. Unfortunately, after finishing this excellent-yet-alarming book, I realized that the tech future is already here– and it’s more Freddy Krueger than Marty McFly. Rosen argues that internet-based technology has seeped into almost every aspect of our lives, acting as an often-unnoticed “mediator of experience.” From online maps to endless digital photos to news to social media, these inescapable technologies change the way we experience reality, mostly for the worse. This is one of those books that supplied data and science to solidify the loose, uncomfortable ideas about technology already floating around in my head. She does not offer any actionable ideas about curbing technology usage, but she definitely increased my awareness (panic?) about the seriousness of the problem. [For actionable ideas, check out Cal Newport’s Digital Minimalism.]
Delorme Atlas & Gazetteer: Colorado – From 2005 until about 2012, Delorme Gazetteers guided me all over the West, from the desolate canyons of Utah to the most remote campsites in Montana. I bought a new Colorado version as a direct result of Rosen’s book above, mostly as a (probably silly) rejection of map apps. After it arrived, I found myself studying it intensely for long stretches of time– exploring all of the memorable mountains and rivers and campsites that I’ve had the privilege of visiting over the years. I was reminded how much I LOVE paper maps– the more detailed the better. I begrudgingly admit that I’ll rarely use it for driving, but I will definitely enjoy continuing to “read it” and share it with my girls. [For some fascinating insights into how different cultures have thought about mapping terrain, read The Sea People by Christina Thompson.]
Pain Don’t Hurt: Meditations on Road House (Second Edition) by Sean T. Collins – Without question, this is the funniest book I have ever read. I cannot remember ever laughing so hard and for so long about anything, much less a book. Days and days of hysterical, tear-and-stomach-cramp inducing laughter. It’s a collection of 365 essays about the greatest movie of all time, penned during 2019, soon after Collins had the passing thought, “I could write about Road House everyday for a year and never run out of things to say.” He analyzes every detail of the movie (even scenes/characters I’d never considered), and even offers a few new-to-me, mind-blowing theories (Jimmy is Brad Wesley’s son?!). If you love Road House, you need to own this book. But you better act fast, because as of this moment, there are only 15 copies remaining of this limited edition run. [If you’re wondering “Is Ed referring to Swayze Road House or Gyllenhaal Road House?,” please unsubscribe from this email right now.]
The Terminal List and True Believer by Jack Carr – Every so often, I pick up a book for nothing but pure fun and entertainment, just as I would watch such masterpieces as Rambo III, Commando, Predator, Red Dawn, and, of course, Road House. If you enjoy these types of films and also like to read the occasional novel, Jack Carr is your man. These are the first two titles in his James Reece series, which follow the revenge-fueled adventures of a former Navy SEAL with nothing to lose. These two books are nearly a combined 1,000 pages, and I cranked through them both in just a few days each. Pure action and fun and a perfect way to unplug from the real world for a while. You’ll see many more of these books in these emails, for sure. [On the far opposite end of the novel spectrum, Wendell Berry’s Jayber Crow is still in the lead as the best novel I’ve ever read. (Also, in the history of humanity, have Dynamic Duo of Carr and Berry ever been recommended in the same paragraph?)]
Surviving Denali: A Study of Accidents on Mount McKinley 1903-1990 by Jonathan Waterman – This book had been sitting on my shelf for years, unread. I randomly picked it up last month and couldn’t put it down. As the title explains, it’s a deep dive into all of the chaos that has gone down on North America’s highest peak– a landscape with a knack for breaking and/or freezing humans in a surprisingly wide variety of ways. The responsible version of myself would recommend that anyone interested in climbing the mountain should read this book first. On the other hand, I’m glad I didn’t read it before my two Denali trips, because I likely would’ve been too scared to actually set foot on the Kahiltna Glacier. But anyone who enjoys mountaineering literature and history will love this book. It’s the real deal– extremely well written, highly educational, and not at all sensational or dramatic. [Speaking of Denali, I’m almost done with Cassidy Randall’s amazing new book Thirty Below: The Harrowing and Heroic Story of the First All-Women’s Ascent of Denali. Stay tuned for my full recommendation… and a podcast chat!]
American Flannel: How a Band of Entrepreneurs Are Bringing the Art and Business of Making Clothes Back Home by Steven Kurutz – For the last few weeks, I’ve been going deep into the history of natural fiber (i.e., cotton, wool, and leather) production in the United States. Long story short, the fabric/clothing industry had long been a bedrock of the US economy, until policy changes in the 1990s forced most of the production overseas. The aftermath has been a total economic disaster for many communities near and dear to my heart, particularly the milltowns in my homestate of North Carolina and many of the farming/ranching communities that produced the raw materials. Thankfully, I didn’t have to read a bunch of boring industry reports or academic papers to get my head around this subject. Instead, Kurutz’s fun-to-read, relatively short narrative gave me a thorough education on the topic via a bunch of colorful, crazy, rebellious characters who are hellbent on making American-made clothing popular and profitable (again). If you love against-the-odds business stories plus in-depth history, check this one out. [It’s very far from the made-in-America ethos, but my favorite crazy-entrepreneur book isShoe Dog by Phil Knight.]
And three more great books written by equally great people:
- The Deck, Stories From a Pandemic by Taylor and Cody Watts – While fully grown adults (like me) struggle for years with their own writing projects, Taylor and Cody (still in high school!) publish a remarkably insightful book about their family’s experience during the pandemic. Endorsed not just by me, but by people who actually know what they are doing, such as David James Duncan and Chris Dombrowski.
- Good Hunting for Kids: Growing Up to Be the Best Hunter You Can Be by Allen Morris Jones – Ever since I brought home 150 pounds of elk meat for my family, my girls have been fascinated by hunting. So I’m thankful that my pal Allen Morris Jones applied his artist’s mind to making the subject more understandable, approachable, and entertaining for curious, outdoor-loving kiddos like mine.
- Echolocation by Sage Marshall – I continue to be poetry curious, but also continue to have no idea where to even start. I’m always happy when a gifted outdoor/conservation-focused writer like Sage publishes a collection of poetry, because I know it’ll be just what I need to read. I loved this book and will revisit it for many years to come.
Lorne: The Man Who Invented Saturday Night Live by Susan Morrison – Most of my middle school weekends revolved around the same routine: Saturday evening, program the VCR to record channel 7 from 11:27 PM – 1:03 AM; Sunday morning, laugh hysterically at SNL skits, while pausing it whenever my parents walked through the room so they wouldn’t hear the crass jokes and make me turn it off. The longer SNL has been on the air, the more I’ve been intrigued by Lorne Michaels– how is it possible to keep a mainstream TV show edgy, funny, and relevant for decades on end? How can a person stay true to their creative vision and have big-time commercial success… without being considered a “sellout?” If you’ve ever wondered these things– or just crave hilarious stories about Will Ferrell– this is your book. At 600+ pages, it’s a big one, but I cranked through effortlessly. [My now-second-favorite SNL book is Live From New York: The Complete, Uncensored History of Saturday Night Live as Told by Its Stars, Writers, and Guests by Tom Shales. It’s worth reading the entire thing just for the part about Steven Seagal.]
Thirty Below: The Harrowing and Heroic Story of the First All-Women’s Ascent of Denali by Cassidy Randall – Up until Thirty Below, the only Denali-focused story I’d read that accurately captured the intensity and insanity of North America’s highest peak was Jon Krakauer’s Club Denali, which was published in Eiger Dreams. Not only did Thirty Below satiate my desire for more Denali-focused writing, but it filled in an embarrassing gap in my knowledge: The first all-women’s ascent in 1970. To me at least, 1970 doesn’t seem like all that long ago, but the obstacles and archaic ideas that these women had to overcome to simply get to the glacier, much less climb the dang thing, were insane. In many ways, climbing the mountain was the easy part– dealing with all of the arrogant, patronizing blowhards who dismissed them was a feat of world-class endurance. Like any great writer, Cassidy combines meticulous research with engaging characters and top-notch writing, and, more importantly, she brings these long-overlooked women to the forefront of mountaineering history. [To learn about Cassidy’s process for writing the book, check out our fun podcast conversation.]
Uplifted: The Evolution of a Climbing Life by Sonnie Trotter – So many mountain adventure memoirs are written by hardcore athletes who seem to be driven by some sort of darkness– an often anger-fueled desire to push beyond the edge to prove something either to themselves or their naysayers. In the world of rock climbing, Sonnie Trotter is about as hardcore as one can be– yet he’s driven by gratitude, adventure for adventure’s sake, and, dare I say, fun. I get a kick out of stories of brooding souls as much as the next guy, but it was so refreshing to read about a world-class athlete who’s driven by curiosity and optimism. As a bonus, the book is written in a refreshingly user-friendly style– it’s accessible to everyone, from veteran climbers to people like me, whose climbing career equals chaperoning their seven-year-old daughter at the climbing gym. You don’t have to zoom out much to see that, at its core, Uplifted is a book about turning your passion into a vocation– a universal theme that most thoughtful people will connect with. [I chatted with Sonnie about the book, and he was just as friendly and humble in conversation as he is on the page.]
Savage Son by Jack Carr – This is the third book in Carr’s James Reece series, and if I were forced to rank them, I would say Savage Son is my favorite so far. If you watch enough interviews with Carr, you’ll realize pretty quickly that he’s a PhD-level student of the thriller genre. He’s been reading them voraciously since he was a kid and now interviews many thriller authors on his podcast, so he knows what makes for a page turner. Combine his thriller obsession with the discipline he brings to the craft of writing, and you have a Tom Clancy-esque writing empire. Not bad for a guy who didn’t start writing seriously until after retiring from a highly decorated 20-year career in the Navy. As many of y’all know, I don’t read much fiction, but I’ll be reading this entire series. [If you’re interested in Carr’s writing process, these two videos (one and two) offer some actionable insights.]
The Farmer’s Wife: My Life in Days by Helen Rebanks – An author friend of mine sent me Helen’s book along with one simple endorsement: “It’ll knock your socks off.” Well, it knocked them off so aggressively that I begged the team at the Old Salt Festival to fly Helen across the ocean so I could interview her on stage at this summer’s event. While I’m not a farmer or a mother or a wife or much of a cook, I connected deeply with Helen’s story. Through beautiful prose, she celebrates the “mundane” parts of life– the chaos of raising children, the stress of trying to keep all the balls in the air, and the often futile attempts to find balance everything professionally, financially, and personally. You know, the regular stuff that actually makes up most of life. Even though, on the surface, our lives and careers are vastly different, I found great solace in Helen’s approach to celebrating both the challenges and the joys of life, of embracing gratitude and giving others grace. When it comes to those ways of thinking, I need all the help I can get! [One-third of Nick Offerman’s Where the Deer and the Antelope Play is devoted to his adventures with Helen and her husband James on their farm in the UK.]
Mark Twain by Ron Chernow – Like The Power Broker, this monster of a biography is taking me a very long time to read. But I’m far enough in to go ahead and give it my full-blown endorsement. Like so many legends of American history, Twain is a fascinating human to learn about, but if I could go back in time, I highly doubt I’d enjoy spending more than a few hours with him in person. I have the utmost respect for how he pulled himself out of poverty and staked his claim as a writer, humorist, and pundit, but, even with Chernow’s masterful explanations, I cannot understand why a person would be so brash, pugilistic, and impulsive. Pick any larger-than-life figure, and the story is so often the same: The personality traits that make them successful are also the most self-destructive thorns in their sides. But thankfully, I’m not looking for a new best friend, I’m looking for a great story– and Chernow nails it. Twain is so complex, ever-evolving, and hypocritical that it takes a full 1,000 pages to fully examine his wild life and personality. I’ll continue to happily chip away at this behemoth between more reasonably sized books. [My favorite book that demonstrates the light and dark sides of larger-than-life personalities is The Last American Man by Elizabeth Gilbert.]
A Worthy Expedition: The History of NOLS by Kate Dernocoeur – Back in 1999, I managed to talk my way into a semester’s worth of college credit in exchange for spending three months learning to climb, backpack, and sail around the Pacific Northwest with the National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS). Founded by yet another larger-than-life character, Paul Petzoldt, NOLS unceremoniously began 60 summers ago in Wyoming’s Wind River Range. Since then, it has evolved into the premier outdoor education and leadership school in the world. This book combines hardcore historical research with a fun-to-read writing style and is mandatory reading for anyone who values the outdoors and experiential education. I’m obviously biased, but I feel like this book should be prominently stocked in every REI and mom-and-pop outdoor store in the country. [Another NOLS book that holds a perpetual, arm’s-length spot on my desk is Wilderness Wisdom.]
The Swamp: The Everglades, Florida, and the Politics of Paradise by Michael Grunwald – I was browsing a local bookstore while visiting the Carolina coast, and this book caught my eye. Having never heard of it, I was instantly convinced to buy it by the glowing blurb from my all-time favorite Florida writer, Carl Hiassen: “The best thing I’ve ever read about the Everglades.” I cannot overstate how much I enjoyed this book. In the style of Hampton Sides or David Grann, Grunwald takes dense, complex history and makes it read like a novel. He’s also surprisingly funny, which is quite an accomplishment when you consider how depressing the destruction of the Everglades has been. As much as I’m intrigued by Florida, what struck me most about this book was how our conquest of the Everglades seemed to become a blueprint for our conquests out West. From the tactics used to eliminate the Indigenous populations, to the obsession with making land “productive,” to the eventual bone-headed development (i.e., destruction) of a fragile ecosystem, the history of the Everglades allowed me to better understand the history of many of our imperiled wild places. [Sara Dant’s Losing Eden is my go-to for learning about the environmental history of the western U.S.]
Grasslands: Painting the American Prairie by James Prosek – James has built a legendary career on his process of becoming fully obsessed with a certain aspect of ecology, relentlessly exploring that idea through art and writing, then producing one-of-a-kind work that communicates his discoveries. I’ve recommended many of his books in these emails, with one of my favorites being Ocean Fishes. In this book, he turns his attention to grasslands and dives into not just specific species of the Great Plains, but into exploring the ideas of what concepts like “native species” even mean. He combines his philosopher’s mind with his artist’s eye, drawing, painting, and sculpting artwork that will make you reconsider your relationship with the land next time you’re cruising through wide-open prairies.
Burn by Peter Heller – Back in the spring of 2019, I read Peter Heller’s The Dog Stars, which painted a way-too-vivid picture of life in Colorado after a global pandemic. I remember thinking, “Yeah, that’s pretty scary, but it could never happen.” Then one year later, in the spring of 2020, we all know what happened. When I finished Burn, an excellent-but-terrifying story of a violent societal uprising followed by the government’s brutal response, I thought, “Yeah, that’s scare and it could happen.” But I guess the sign of a good novel is that it actually makes you feel something, and, now, every time I make the mistake of looking at internet “news,” I think about Burn. As is the case with all of Heller’s novels, this one is action-packed, fast-paced, and full of memorable, flawed, complex characters. It’s a great read, and, for me at least, definitely worth the trade-off of a little extra anxiety. [If you want the opposite of anxiety, read Wendell Berry’s Jayber Crow.]
The Way Out: A True Story of Survival in the Heart of the Rockies by Devon O’Neil – If you listen to my podcast, then you’re already familiar with The Way Out. And if you’re a fan of Krakauer’s Into the Wild or Into Thin Air, or Junger’s The Perfect Storm, then you’ll love this book. It’s the story of a low-key backcountry ski trip gone horribly wrong, one epic survival story, one tragic death, and the tight-knit mountain community that has to come to grips with heartbreak and loss. This book is especially important for those of us who are drawn to adventure in wild places–and especially those of us who try to explain away the inherent risk that comes with spending time in potentially deadly environments. Devon was the perfect person to tell this story–the compassion and empathy he brings to his reporting is obvious, and his commitment to telling the story completely and fairly is a case study in responsible journalism. A very important book. [If you haven’t already, check out my conversation with Devon.]
Simple Fly Fishing and Pheasant Tail Simplicity by Yvon Chouinard, Craig Mathews, and Mauro Mazza – These two books (and the next one below) fall into the category of “You might think this is a book about X, but it’s actually about Y.” On the surface, these books seem to be about how to become a better fly fisherman–but not through buying a truckload of expensive gear or filling your vest with 2,000 fancy-looking flies. The authors, who are all more accomplished anglers than at least 99.99% of the people reading this email, insist that the secret to mastering the art of fly fishing is to SIMPLIFY. In the case of Simple Fly Fishing, throw away your reel. In the case of Pheasant Tail Simplicity, use only one type of fly. By applying constraints, embracing curiosity, and reducing the process to its purest essence, one can finally begin the journey of becoming a master. And whaddaya know, this idea of embracing simplicity can also be applied to all parts of our lives: from work to play, creative endeavors to interpersonal relationships. As society becomes increasingly complicated, the idea of simplification becomes increasingly attractive. [I had the great pleasure of chatting with Yvon Chouinard about simplicity in fishing and life–full of laughs, full of wisdom.]
Little Woodchucks: Offerman Woodshop’s Guide to Tools and Tomfoolery by Nick Offerman with Lee Buchanan – On the surface, this is a fun, funny, photo-filled instruction manual for teaching kids how to build things from wood, by hand. Nick covers everything from choosing your tools, to setting up your workspace, to completing 12 different projects, including a box kite, a little free library, and a toy truck. It’s real fun–the kind of rewarding undertaking that lets children use their brains, learn a skill, and create a real-world, tactile object that they can hold in their hands. But when you dig a little deeper, Little Woodchucks is about rejecting the brain-rotting pull of the internet, shunning the hypnotic pull of social media, and working alongside like-minded people to create useful, pride-inducing keepsakes. In my humble opinion, no matter our age, we will probably all benefit from a little less swiping and more real-world craftsmanship. (If you’re a bigger woodchuck who’s looking for more advanced projects and fun/wise Offerman-esque philosophy, check out Nick’s Good Clean Fun.]
Dirtbag Billionaire: How Yvon Chouinard Built Patagonia, Made a Fortune, and Gave It All Away by David Gelles – Even though I’d spent the past 20 years reading and watching pretty much everything about Yvon Chouinard and Patagonia, I learned a ton from this biography. Gelles is an accomplished New York Times journalist who, after ripping Jack Welch to shreds, turned his attention to Chouinard. (Spoiler alert: He seems to admire Yvon a lot more than Jack.) Gelles chronicles Chouinard’s life from rambunctious youngster to climbing icon to business innovator to super philanthropist who, in 2022, gave his multi-billion-dollar company away. While I loved the insights into Chouinard’s personality and vision, I especially enjoyed learning more about his colleagues and teammates who played invaluable roles in Patagonia’s success, particularly Kris Tompkins. Gelles paints a fair picture of the entire Patagonia enterprise, exploring the contradictions and paradoxes of building a high-impact consumer goods company that is also real-deal committed to making the world a better place. A good reminder that nothing is straightforward, everything is nuanced, and the most interesting people are complex. [The ethos of Nike founder Phil Knight couldn’t be further from Yvon’s, but Knight’s memoir Shoe Dog is one of my all-time favorite business memoirs.]
Apple in China: The Capture of the World’s Greatest Company by Patrick McGee – Back when I was in business school, my least favorite subject, hands down, was operations. Endless yammering about factories, assembly lines, “lean manufacturing,” “Six Sigma black belts,” and a bunch of other lingo that my brain seemed violently allergic to. So I was quite surprised to find myself completely engrossed by a 400+-page book about the global supply chain that produces iPhones. But seriously… it was fascinating. And at times… infuriating. The quick summary is that a small number of Chinese manufacturers patiently and ingeniously built a system that all but forced Apple to not only hire them to assemble its products, but also to build its factories, train its workers, and inject billions and billions of dollars of economic stimulus into the Chinese economy. And over the course of three or four decades, China grew into the economic and political powerhouse that it is today. Now that it’s finished helping China, perhaps Apple can figure out a way to inject a few hundred billion into its home country’s public schools and/or healthcare system. [Another head-spinning business book that I think of often is When McKinsey Comes to Town by Walt Bogdanich and Michael Forsythe.]
The Devil’s Hand by Jack Carr – You have probably noticed that Jack Carr novels have a seemingly permanent position in my book recommendations. This will continue until I have read them all. They’re not for everyone, but if you like movies like (or YouTube clips from) Rambo, Commando, Man on Fire, Taken, John Wick, The Equalizer, Bourne Identity, etc., I can guarantee you’ll love these books. [For a thoroughly hilarious take on the best of this type of movie, read Pain Don’t Hurt: 365 Meditations on Road House by Sean T. Collins. It’s a masterpiece.]
Sammy Matsaw Jr. – Salmon, Sovereignty, and the Long Work of Healing
Sammy Matsaw Jr. is the Director of the Columbia Basin Program at The Nature Conservancy, where he works at the intersection of salmon recovery, tribal sovereignty, and large-scale river restoration across one of the most complex watersheds in North America. In this role, Sammy helps guide conservation strategies that span state lines, political boundaries, and cultural histories—while keeping people, relationships, and responsibility at the center of the work.
Sammy grew up on the Shoshone-Bannock Reservation, surrounded by salmon stories, land-based learning, and a deep sense of responsibility to place. He served in the U.S. military, including combat deployments overseas, before returning home to heal, reconnect, and rebuild—eventually earning advanced degrees in ecology, policy, and conservation science. Along the way, he’s navigated life as a soldier, scientist, ceremonial practitioner, husband, father, and now grandfather, carrying Indigenous knowledge forward while engaging directly with Western institutions and systems.
In this conversation, we talk about salmon restoration as a healing journey—not just for rivers, but for communities and cultures shaped by loss, displacement, and change. We dig into Indigenous knowledge alongside Western science, the role of humility and trust in conservation, and why Sammy believes real progress only happens through relationships and long-term commitment. We also explore his vision for the Columbia Basin, his leadership inside TNC, and what it means to show up—day after day—with curiosity, care, and what he calls “barefoot trust-building.”
This is a thoughtful, hopeful, and vulnerable conversation, and I greatly appreciate Sammy taking the time to chat with me. I hope you enjoy.
Photos courtesy of TNC: header © Ben Herndon, inset courtesy of River Newe
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
…or wherever you get your podcasts!
EPISODE PARTNER:
This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Colorado chapter of The Nature Conservancy and TNC chapters throughout the Western United States. Guided by science and grounded by decades of collaborative partnerships, The Nature Conservancy has a long-standing legacy of achieving lasting results to create a world where nature and people thrive.
During the last week of every month throughout 2025, Mountain & Prairie will be delving into conversations with a wide range of The Nature Conservancy’s leaders, partners, collaborators, and stakeholders, highlighting the myriad of conservation challenges, opportunities, and solutions here in the American West and beyond. You can access all of the episodes here.
To learn more about The Nature Conservancy’s impactful work in the West and around the world, visit www.nature.org
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 3:00 – Intro, where and how Sammy grew up
- 10:03 – Sammy’s decision to join the military
- 15:34 – Readjusting to home
- 20:48 – What helps heal
- 24:58 – Sammy’s academic journey
- 32:12 – Salmon work
- 39:09 – Entry into TNC
- 43:55 – Salmon restoration as a healing journey
- 50:09 – Layers of the job
- 57:31 – Book recs
- 1:01:18 – Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Sammy Matsaw Jr.
- Shoshone-Bannock Tribes
- Indigenous people in the Vietnam War
- Columbia River Basin program
- River of Return, a film featuring Sammy and his wife, Jessica
- River Newe, Sammy and Jessica’s organization
- Book recs: How It Is: The Native American Philosophy of V. F. Cordova, King of Fish, Black Elk Speaks
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Elliot Ross: Where Landscape, Justice, and Storytelling Meet
- Helen Augare Carlson & Dylan DesRosier – Land, Language, and Stewardship in the Blackfeet Nation
- Mauricia Baca – An Empathetic Approach to Nevada’s Conservation Challenges
- Beatriz Soto – Bridging Cultural Divides & Building Equitable Communities
- Celene Hawkins & Izabella Ruffino – Tribal Partnerships, Indigenous Voices, Cutting-Edge Conservation
- Rebecca Clarren – “The Cost of Free Land”
- Lorelei Cloud – Solving Modern-Day Challenges with Ancient Tribal Wisdom
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
Ed’s Appearance on “My Favorite Things”
Today’s episode is a bit of a departure from the usual format: I’m re-sharing a recent conversation I had on my friend Brendan Leonard’s new podcast, My Favorite Things. I’m sure most of yall are already familiar with Brendan’s work, but for those of you who aren’t, he’s an author, illustrator, filmmaker, and creator of Semi-Rad.
Brendan’s new podcast is built around a simple but fascinating premise: conversations about the books, films, art, and creative works that have helped shape a person’s life and career.
In this conversation, we spend less time on what I do, and more time on what’s influenced how I think and live — from Theodore Roosevelt and Sebastian Junger to a Winslow Homer painting and a movie that’s been oddly entertaining and instructive over the years. (I bet y’all can guess the movie.)
There are already several excellent episodes live featuring thoughtful, interesting people, and Brendan has created something both entertaining and instructive with this podcast. If you enjoy this conversation, I’d encourage you to subscribe, explore the rest of the episodes, and share the show with any of your friends who might enjoy it.Thanks so much for listening and here’s my appearance on My Favorite Things.
Ed’s Favorite Things:
- 1. Liner notes from Jimmy Buffett’s 1990s albums
- 2. The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt by Edmund Morris: Publisher’s page | Bookshop | Amazon
- 3. The Gulf Stream by Winslow Homer
- 4. Tribe by Sebastian Junger: Publisher’s page | Bookshop | Amazon
- 5. Road House (the original)
- Other things we mentioned:
- Jack Johnson’s cover of Jimmy Buffett’s A Pirate Looks at Forty
- The Rewatchables Road House episode
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
… or wherever you get your podcasts!
—
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 2:10: Background — Mountain & Prairie, family, and the “strenuous life”
- 5:00: Favorite Thing #1 — Jimmy Buffett liner notes
- 11:30: Favorite Thing #2 — The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt
- 20:00: Favorite Thing #3 — Winslow Homer’s The Gulf Stream
- 28:15: Favorite Thing #4 — Tribe by Sebastian Junger
- 39:30: Favorite Thing #5 — Road House
- 52:15: Closing reflections
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Yvon Chouinard – The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
- Nick Offerman – Empathy, Nuance, & Good Hard Work
- Kristine Tompkins – Nothing to Lose
- Hampton Sides Returns: The Wild and Tragic Tale of Captain James Cook
- Douglas Brinkley – Exploring the Past to Find Inspiration for the Future
- Joe Schobert – From NFL Pro Bowler to Western Conservation Advocate
- Scott Hulet: Reading + Writing + Surfing + Fishing + Traveling
- George Hodgin Returns – On Risk-Taking, Leadership, and the Future of Cannabis
Visit the podcast page for a full, searchable list of episodes
Mike Schaedel – Restoring Balance to Fire-Adapted Landscapes
Mike Schaedel is the Western Montana Forest Restoration Director for The Nature Conservancy, where he leads some of the most ambitious and collaborative forest restoration work happening anywhere in the West. Based in Missoula, Mike works at the intersection of science, community partnerships, and land stewardship—helping restore fire-adapted forests, reduce wildfire risk, and improve the health and resilience of landscapes across the region.
Mike’s career path is super interesting and anything but traditional. He grew up in Portland, fell in love with the mountains through rock climbing, and eventually landed in Missoula, where the combination of wild landscapes and a rich literary community drew him in. After earning an undergraduate degree in creative writing, he found his way into forestry and fire ecology through conservation corps work, hands-on restoration experience, and a graduate program focused on forest dynamics and fire.
In this conversation, Mike offers a clear overview of how Western Montana’s forests came to look the way they do today—shaped by millennia of tribal burning, transformed by railroad-era land grants and industrial logging, and altered further by a century of fire suppression. He explains why effective restoration now depends on combining mechanical thinning with prescribed fire and on working across ownership boundaries with partners ranging from local communities to tribes and federal agencies. We also discuss some of the innovative collaborative efforts underway in the region, as well as a memorable story of a prescribed burn that came together through quick problem-solving and deep trust.
This is a rich, informative, and hopeful conversation about what it takes to restore forests at scale—and why the future of these landscapes depends on both ecological understanding and strong community partnerships. Enjoy!
Photos courtesy of TNC: header © Steven Gnam, inset © Jeremy Roberts
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
…or wherever you get your podcasts!
EPISODE PARTNER:
This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Colorado chapter of The Nature Conservancy and TNC chapters throughout the Western United States. Guided by science and grounded by decades of collaborative partnerships, The Nature Conservancy has a long-standing legacy of achieving lasting results to create a world where nature and people thrive.
During the last week of every month throughout 2025, Mountain & Prairie will be delving into conversations with a wide range of The Nature Conservancy’s leaders, partners, collaborators, and stakeholders, highlighting the myriad of conservation challenges, opportunities, and solutions here in the American West and beyond. You can access all of the episodes here.
To learn more about The Nature Conservancy’s impactful work in the West and around the world, visit www.nature.org
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 3:02 – Intro, Mike’s love for Missoula
- 6:04 – Getting a creative writing degree
- 8:21 – And fighting back into forestry
- 12:26 – Early writing influences
- 13:39 – Switching sides of the brain
- 15:32 – First job out of grad school
- 20:08 – And that work now
- 23:38 – Checkerboard landownership
- 33:04 – Conservation accomplishment
- 34:56 – Fitting in forest health
- 39:33 – Fire scars
- 45:52 – The Big Burn
- 52:59 – Fire playing a beneficial role
- 58:51 – And the role mill workers play
- 1:02:03 – Projects down the pipeline
- 1:12:00 – Book recs
- 1:13:49 – Parting words
Information Referenced:
- Michael Schaedel, Western Montana Forest Restoration Director
- Reserved Treaty Rights Lands Program: The Power of Partnership
- David James Duncan
- Gary Snyder
- Northwest Youth Core in Eugene, Oregon
- Montana Conservation Corps
- Dr. Andrew Larson at the University of Montana
- DJD on M&P
- Nick Triolo on M&P
- Thoreau and Emerson
- Beat poets
- TNC buying Plum Creek land in Montana’s Flathead Beacon
- Checkerboard landownership across the American West.
- A River Runs Through It, set in the Blackfoot Valley. (Norman Maclean had a cabin in Seeley Lake, Montana.)
- Blackfoot Challenge
- Montana Legacy Project
- The Big Burn by Timothy Egan
- Pyramid Lumber in Seeley Lake closing
- Book recs: Or, rather, a scientist rec: Steve Arno.
- Prescribed fire training camps hosted by TNC
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Kristine Tompkins – Nothing to Lose
- Carli Kierstead – Wyoming Forests and the Work of Keeping Water Flowing
- Celene Hawkins and Taylor Hawes – Navigating the Next Era of the Colorado River
- Rob Addington – A Deep Dive into Western Wildfires and Forest Health
- Matt Cahill – A Deep Dive into the Sagebrush Sea
- Chris Keyes – From Outside to RE:PUBLIC
- Yvon Chouinard – The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
SHED SESH: September & October 2025 Book Recommendations
This month marks ten full years of my Bimonthly Book Recommendations—a decade of weird little paragraphs about the books that grab my scattered attention. Whether you’ve been here since the beginning or signed up five minutes ago, thank you. I’m still baffled anyone reads these things, but I’m grateful all the same.
To mark the occasion, I recorded a late-night solo episode from The Shed, diving deeper into each of my September & October picks: why I chose them, what stayed with me, and the sometimes-unexpected lessons I gleaned from each of them. Or you could just describe it as a guy sitting in his garden shed talking to himself. Your choice.
You can read all of the recommendations below, or, if you’re clamoring to receive more emails, you can sign up for the list here:
Thanks for listening, thanks for reading, and here’s to 10 more great years of great books.
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
… or wherever you get your podcasts!
—
RESOURCES:
Books Discussed:
- 00:00 — Intro + 10 years of book-rec emails
- 05:45 — Burn by Peter Heller
- 11:00 — Jayber Crow by Wendell Berry (related rec)
- 11:45 — The Way Out by Devon O’Neil
- 17:10 — Simple Fly Fishing by Yvon Chouinard
- 21:50 — Pheasant Tail Simplicity by Yvon Chouinard
- 25:40 — Little Woodchucks by Nick Offerman
- 29:20 — Dirtbag Billionaire by David Gelles
- 35:00 — Shoe Dog by Phil Knight (related rec)
- 35:55 — Apple in China by Patrick McGee
- 40:45 — When McKinsey Comes to Town (related rec)
- 42:10 — The Devil’s Hand by Jack Carr
- 46:15 — Closing thoughts + how the book list began
The Book Recommendations:
Burn by Peter Heller – Back in the spring of 2019, I read Peter Heller’s The Dog Stars, which painted a way-too-vivid picture of life in Colorado after a global pandemic. I remember thinking, “Yeah, that’s pretty scary, but it could never happen.” Then one year later, in the spring of 2020, we all know what happened. When I finished Burn, an excellent-but-terrifying story of a violent societal uprising followed by the government’s brutal response, I thought, “Yeah, that’s scare and it could happen.” But I guess the sign of a good novel is that it actually makes you feel something, and, now, every time I make the mistake of looking at internet “news,” I think about Burn. As is the case with all of Heller’s novels, this one is action-packed, fast-paced, and full of memorable, flawed, complex characters. It’s a great read, and, for me at least, definitely worth the trade-off of a little extra anxiety. [If you want the opposite of anxiety, read Wendell Berry’s Jayber Crow.]
The Way Out: A True Story of Survival in the Heart of the Rockies by Devon O’Neil – If you listen to my podcast, then you’re already familiar with The Way Out. And if you’re a fan of Krakauer’s Into the Wild or Into Thin Air, or Junger’s The Perfect Storm, then you’ll love this book. It’s the story of a low-key backcountry ski trip gone horribly wrong, one epic survival story, one tragic death, and the tight-knit mountain community that has to come to grips with heartbreak and loss. This book is especially important for those of us who are drawn to adventure in wild places–and especially those of us who try to explain away the inherent risk that comes with spending time in potentially deadly environments. Devon was the perfect person to tell this story–the compassion and empathy he brings to his reporting is obvious, and his commitment to telling the story completely and fairly is a case study in responsible journalism. A very important book. [If you haven’t already, check out my conversation with Devon.]
Simple Fly Fishing and Pheasant Tail Simplicity by Yvon Chouinard, Craig Mathews, and Mauro Mazza – These two books (and the next one below) fall into the category of “You might think this is a book about X, but it’s actually about Y.” On the surface, these books seem to be about how to become a better fly fisherman–but not through buying a truckload of expensive gear or filling your vest with 2,000 fancy-looking flies. The authors, who are all more accomplished anglers than at least 99.99% of the people reading this email, insist that the secret to mastering the art of fly fishing is to SIMPLIFY. In the case of Simple Fly Fishing, throw away your reel. In the case of Pheasant Tail Simplicity, use only one type of fly. By applying constraints, embracing curiosity, and reducing the process to its purest essence, one can finally begin the journey of becoming a master. And whaddaya know, this idea of embracing simplicity can also be applied to all parts of our lives: from work to play, creative endeavors to interpersonal relationships. As society becomes increasingly complicated, the idea of simplification becomes increasingly attractive. [I had the great pleasure of chatting with Yvon Chouinard about simplicity in fishing and life–full of laughs, full of wisdom.]
Little Woodchucks: Offerman Woodshop’s Guide to Tools and Tomfoolery by Nick Offerman with Lee Buchanan – On the surface, this is a fun, funny, photo-filled instruction manual for teaching kids how to build things from wood, by hand. Nick covers everything from choosing your tools, to setting up your workspace, to completing 12 different projects, including a box kite, a little free library, and a toy truck. It’s real fun–the kind of rewarding undertaking that lets children use their brains, learn a skill, and create a real-world, tactile object that they can hold in their hands. But when you dig a little deeper, Little Woodchucks is about rejecting the brain-rotting pull of the internet, shunning the hypnotic pull of social media, and working alongside like-minded people to create useful, pride-inducing keepsakes. In my humble opinion, no matter our age, we will probably all benefit from a little less swiping and more real-world craftsmanship. (If you’re a bigger woodchuck who’s looking for more advanced projects and fun/wise Offerman-esque philosophy, check out Nick’s Good Clean Fun.]
Dirtbag Billionaire: How Yvon Chouinard Built Patagonia, Made a Fortune, and Gave It All Away by David Gelles – Even though I’d spent the past 20 years reading and watching pretty much everything about Yvon Chouinard and Patagonia, I learned a ton from this biography. Gelles is an accomplished New York Times journalist who, after ripping Jack Welch to shreds, turned his attention to Chouinard. (Spoiler alert: He seems to admire Yvon a lot more than Jack.) Gelles chronicles Chouinard’s life from rambunctious youngster to climbing icon to business innovator to super philanthropist who, in 2022, gave his multi-billion-dollar company away. While I loved the insights into Chouinard’s personality and vision, I especially enjoyed learning more about his colleagues and teammates who played invaluable roles in Patagonia’s success, particularly Kris Tompkins. Gelles paints a fair picture of the entire Patagonia enterprise, exploring the contradictions and paradoxes of building a high-impact consumer goods company that is also real-deal committed to making the world a better place. A good reminder that nothing is straightforward, everything is nuanced, and the most interesting people are complex. [The ethos of Nike founder Phil Knight couldn’t be further from Yvon’s, but Knight’s memoir Shoe Dog is one of my all-time favorite business memoirs.]
Apple in China: The Capture of the World’s Greatest Company by Patrick McGee – Back when I was in business school, my least favorite subject, hands down, was operations. Endless yammering about factories, assembly lines, “lean manufacturing,” “Six Sigma black belts,” and a bunch of other lingo that my brain seemed violently allergic to. So I was quite surprised to find myself completely engrossed by a 400+-page book about the global supply chain that produces iPhones. But seriously… it was fascinating. And at times… infuriating. The quick summary is that a small number of Chinese manufacturers patiently and ingeniously built a system that all but forced Apple to not only hire them to assemble its products, but also to build its factories, train its workers, and inject billions and billions of dollars of economic stimulus into the Chinese economy. And over the course of three or four decades, China grew into the economic and political powerhouse that it is today. Now that it’s finished helping China, perhaps Apple can figure out a way to inject a few hundred billion into its home country’s public schools and/or healthcare system. [Another head-spinning business book that I think of often is When McKinsey Comes to Town by Walt Bogdanich and Michael Forsythe.]
The Devil’s Hand by Jack Carr – You have probably noticed that Jack Carr novels have a seemingly permanent position in my book recommendations. This will continue until I have read them all. They’re not for everyone, but if you like movies like (or YouTube clips from) Rambo, Commando, Man on Fire, Taken, John Wick, The Equalizer, Bourne Identity, etc., I can guarantee you’ll love these books. [For a thoroughly hilarious take on the best of this type of movie, read Pain Don’t Hurt: 365 Meditations on Road House by Sean T. Collins. It’s a masterpiece.]
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Helen Rebanks – “The Farmer’s Wife” – Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Douglas Brinkley – Exploring the Past to Find Inspiration for the Future
- Yvon Chouinard – The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
- Nicholas Triolo – What the Circuitous Path Reveals
- Cassidy Randall – The Untold Story of Denali’s First All-Women’s Ascent
- Scott Hulet: Reading + Writing + Surfing + Fishing + Traveling
- Mark Easter – Food, Soil, and Our Planet’s Future
- Kevin Grange – The Secret Lives of Grizzlies
Visit the podcast page for a full, searchable list of episodes
Devon O’Neil — On Nature’s Power and the Price of Adventure
Devon O’Neil is a journalist, author, and longtime friend of mine whose new book The Way Out: A True Story of Survival in the Heart of the Rockies is one of the best pieces of outdoor nonfiction I’ve read in years. The book tells the harrowing true story of a backcountry ski trip near Leadville, Colorado, that turned tragic—and the years-long process of understanding what really happened, and how a mountain town wrestled with loss, resilience, and the complicated relationship we all have with risk and wild places. It’s gripping, deeply reported, and beautifully written—equal parts survival epic, community portrait, and meditation on how we find meaning in the aftermath of tragedy.
Devon has spent more than two decades as a writer and reporter based in Summit County, Colorado, covering everything from adventure sports and avalanches to the cultural and emotional undercurrents of life in mountain towns. Before turning his attention to this book project, he worked in newspapers, wrote for Outside, Men’s Journal, and ESPN.com, and somehow managed to balance all of that with being a hardcore athlete and a dedicated dad and husband. He’s one of those rare writers whose empathy and endurance match the people that he writes about.
In this conversation, Devon and I dig into the story behind The Way Out—how he first heard about the tragedy, earned the trust of a close-knit community, and spent years piecing together a complete and compassionate account. We talk about the ethical tightrope of telling other people’s hardest stories, how his own brushes with danger shaped his perspective on risk, and what this project taught him about the fine line between adventure and recklessness. We also get into his childhood growing up on a sailboat in the Virgin Islands, his evolution as a journalist and athlete, and the hard-earned wisdom that comes from spending a lifetime chasing stories in the mountains.
The Way Out is available now wherever you get your books, so follow the links here to grab your copy. Big thanks to Devon for the chat, and thank you for listening. Enjoy!
—
Photos courtesy of Devon O’Neil
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
… or wherever you get your podcasts!
—
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 2:23 – Intro and finding The Way Out story
- 6:59 – Making people comfortable
- 11:10 – The story in Devon’s words
- 16:29 – Mountain town people
- 20:48 – Lifestyle overlaps
- 24:20 – Devon’s own accidents
- 30:10 – It’s all great until someone gets hurt
- 33:03 – The bonds of risk
- 35:18 – Adjustments
- 39:22 – Growing up on islands
- 43:43 – How Devon got to Colorado
- 47:34 – Pros and cons of different types of writing
- 51:22 – Book writing advice
- 55:42 – Not just about getting it right
- 1:00:09 – Book and writer recs
Information Referenced:
- Devon O’Neil
- The Way Out: A True Story of Survival in the Heart of the Rockies by Devon O’Neil
- Silverton Avalanche School death, Devon’s story and one from The Colorado Sun
- 10th Mountain Division Huts
- Salida, Colorado
- Into Thin Air, The Perfect Storm
- Writer recs: Bill Gifford, Ted Conover, Hampton Sides, Mark Jenkins, Abe Streep, Hunter S. Thompson
- Book recs: Into the Wild, Hell’s Angels
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Yvon Chouinard – The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
- Chris Keyes – From Outside to RE:PUBLIC
- Nicholas Triolo – What the Circuitous Path Reveals
- Helen Rebanks – “The Farmer’s Wife” – Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Cassidy Randall – The Untold Story of Denali’s First All-Women’s Ascent
- Scott Hulet: Reading + Writing + Surfing + Fishing + Traveling
- Mark Easter – Food, Soil, and Our Planet’s Future
- Kevin Grange – The Secret Lives of Grizzlies
Visit the podcast page for a full, searchable list of episodes
Carli Kierstead – Wyoming Forests and the Work of Keeping Water Flowing
Carli Kierstead is the Forest Program Director for The Nature Conservancy in Wyoming, where she leads efforts to understand and restore some of the West’s most critical—and often overlooked—ecosystems. From beetle kill and wildfire to drought, Wyoming’s forests face a range of challenges that ripple far beyond the state’s borders. These high-country forests are the headwaters of several major river basins, providing water to millions of people across the American West.
In this conversation, Carli and I dig into the past, present, and future of Western forests—how management philosophies have evolved over the decades, what’s threatening their health today, and what can be done to make them more resilient in a changing climate. We talk about her team’s groundbreaking work using snowtography—a deceptively simple but powerful way to study how forest structure affects snowpack and water supply—and how those findings could help guide future restoration across the Colorado River Basin.
Carli also shares her personal journey from growing up in San Diego to finding her calling in Wyoming’s wide-open landscapes, her insights on collaboration and trust-building in conservation, and a few book recommendations that shaped her path. It’s a hopeful, science-grounded conversation about water, forests, and how collaboration can shape a more resilient future for the West.
Thanks for listening, hope you enjoy!
Both photos by Drew Bennett Photo, courtesy of TNC
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
…or wherever you get your podcasts!
EPISODE PARTNER:
This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Colorado chapter of The Nature Conservancy and TNC chapters throughout the Western United States. Guided by science and grounded by decades of collaborative partnerships, The Nature Conservancy has a long-standing legacy of achieving lasting results to create a world where nature and people thrive.
During the last week of every month throughout 2025, Mountain & Prairie will be delving into conversations with a wide range of The Nature Conservancy’s leaders, partners, collaborators, and stakeholders, highlighting the myriad of conservation challenges, opportunities, and solutions here in the American West and beyond. You can access all of the episodes here.
To learn more about The Nature Conservancy’s impactful work in the West and around the world, visit www.nature.org
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 2:34 – Intro and Wyoming forest health
- 7:16 – Beetle issues
- 8:30 – Why forest health?
- 12:35 – Economic benefit of forests
- 16:28 – Wyoming’s claim to water
- 17:10 – Snowtography
- 23:18 – Lessons from the snow
- 27:33 – On the ground impact
- 33:53 – How it scales
- 40:42 – Relationship building
- 46:08 – The tendrils of the Colorado River Basin
- 46:46 – Carli’s environment obsession
- 52:01 – How to build a relationship
- 55:10 – Book recs
- 58:38 – Last thoughts
Information Referenced:
- Carli Kierstead, Forest Program Director at The Nature Conservancy in Wyoming
- Wyoming forests + TNC
- Snowtography short film
- Forests for Freshwater factsheet
- The Big Burn
- Snowtography
- Carli’s book recs: The Solace of Open Spaces, Finding the Mother Tree
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Rob Addington – A Deep Dive into Western Wildfires and Forest Health
- Kristine Tompkins – Nothing to Lose
- Matt Cahill – A Deep Dive into the Sagebrush Sea
- Paul Hendricks – The Conservation Alliance and the Future of Public Lands
- Chris Keyes – From Outside to RE:PUBLIC
- Celene Hawkins and Taylor Hawes – Navigating the Next Era of the Colorado River
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.















































