Darcy Chenoweth – Helping the Helpers
Darcy Chenoweth is a Montana-based Psychiatric Mental Health Nurse Practitioner whose career sits at the intersection of medicine, trauma recovery, and the outdoor world. Darcy works with individuals and organizationsโespecially those in high-stress helping professions such as first responders, healthcare workers, and other frontline rolesโto address burnout, trauma exposure, and the long-term impacts of stress. Her work blends psychotherapy, medication management, and practical tools that help people metabolize the intense experiences that often come with caring for others.
Darcy grew up in Coloradoโs Front Range mountains, and later moved north to Missoula for college, drawn largely by the pull of the northern Rockies and the culture of Montana. Over the years, her life has included living off-grid in western Montana, working as an ER nurse in a small critical-access hospital, teaching backcountry emergency medicine around the world, and maintaining a parallel life as an artist working in ceramics.
Those experiencesโespecially her years in emergency medicine and mountain environmentsโshaped her understanding of how trauma and stress accumulate in people who dedicate their lives to helping others. Today, Darcyโs practice focuses on helping those individuals build awareness, resilience, and sustainable ways of engaging with difficult work while maintaining healthy lives outside of it.
In this conversation, Darcy and I talk about the hidden drivers of burnout in helping professions, why community is essential for metabolizing trauma, and how modern lifeโdespite all its conveniencesโoften strips away the friction and connection that humans need to stay mentally healthy. We also discuss the role of nature, trust, and shared experience in healing, along with Darcyโs work supporting mountain communities through organizations like Mountain Muskox, which helps people process grief and loss connected to accidents in the mountains.
Although much of Darcyโs work focuses on first responders and other helping professionals, the ideas she shares in this conversation are relevant to anyone navigating stress, hardship, or big life transitions. Itโs a wide-ranging discussion about how humans process difficulty and how we can build lives and communities that help us come out stronger on the other side.
Be sure to check out the episode notes for links to Darcyโs practice, her work with Mountain Muskox, and several of the books and resources we discuss. Enjoy!
Photos courtesy of Darcy Chenoweth
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
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Spotify
โฆor wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing Darcy Chenoweth and highlighting M&P supporters
- 6:32 – Rollinsville, Colorado and skiing
- 8:57 – Outdoors influence
- 10:58 – Darcyโs plan at 17
- 12:39 – Adjusting to Montana
- 15:00 – Western medicine forays
- 17:47 – And a foray into ceramics and art
- 20:00 – How a compassionate person compartmentalizesย
- 23:37 – What is burnout?
- 28:49 – Darcyโs practice
- 32:17 – The value of community
- 38:20 – Finding real meaning in the real world
- 42:13 – Is action the anecdote?
- 46:01 – Alcohol advice
- 48:38 – And social media advice
- 50:20 – The change that is being a mother
- 52:50 – Mountain Muskox
- 55:28 – Darcyโs role models
- 58:39 – Loss of structures
- 1:02:12 – Book recs and parting words
Information Referenced:
- Darcy Chenoweth
- Aerie Backcountry Medicine
- Moral injury and a podcast episode considering moral injury in the pharmacy arena.
- Laura McGladrey on psychological first aid
- Responder Alliance and the stress continuum
- Tribe (a reflection on community)
- Hilary Oliverโs Substack
- Outdoors mental health resources: Mountain Muskox, Soar
- Darcyโs role models: Sarah Hueniken, Thomas Hรผbl, Bell Hooks, Bill Kittredgeย
- Book recs: Ceremony, Wendell Berryโs Citizenship Papers, The Myth of Normal, The Wild Edge of Sorrow
- TNC Colorado
- And a few M&P + TNC conversations
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Dr. Eric Arzubi โ A New Approach to Solving the Westโs Mental Health Crisis
- Stella Maria Baer โ Moons, Horses, and New Mexico Light
- Logan Maxwell Hagege Returns โ On Taking Action & Finding Balance
- Mauricia Baca โ An Empathetic Approach to Nevadaโs Conservation Challenges
- Scott Hulet: Reading + Writing + Surfing + Fishing + Traveling
- David Cronenwett โ Lessons from Jiu-Jitsu, On and Off the Mats
- Helen Rebanks โ โThe Farmerโs Wifeโ โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
M&P IS LISTENER-SUPPORTED VIA PATREON
Our 10 Favorite Adventure Books, with Mark Kenyon
Mark Kenyon is no stranger to Mountain & Prairie listenersโheโs the author of That Wild Country, host of the Wired to Hunt podcast, and the newly minted Director of Conservation at MeatEater. Heโs also one of the most voracious readers I know.
Every few years, Mark and I record a special episode where we discuss our top 10 favorite books in a particular category. The first one was our top 10 conservation books, then we explored our top 10 books about the American Westโyou can find links to both of those episodes in the show notes.
For this episode, we decided to discuss our top 10 adventure booksโa category that both Mark and I love and have spent decades reading. We each brought five books that have stayed with us. Some are classics. Some are newer. Some are brutal. Some are unexpectedly funny. All of them reveal something about the human drive to embrace discomfort and move toward the unknown rather than away from it.
Yes, Mark and I love reading adventure books for entertainment and enjoyment, but we also both try to extract lessons from these wild stories that can be applied to our own lives. Whether weโre thinking about family, assessing risk, leadership, attitude, or simply not taking ourselves too seriously, there are important lessons to be learned from even the most outlandish adventures. So this conversation goes much deeper than a simple โRead this book because itโs goodโโwe discuss how these books have shaped us and how they continue to influence our thinking.
And if you like book recommendations, be sure to sign up for my bimonthly book recommendations email. For more than ten years, Iโve been sending one email every other month featuring books I recently read and highly recommend. The topics and genres are all over the placeโand can admittedly be a little weirdโbut people seem to enjoy them, so I keep sending them. I just published my recommendations for January and February 2026, so you can sign up here if youโre interested.
Thanks so much for listening!
Photos courtesy of Mark Kenyon
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
โฆor wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing Mark Kenyon and highlighting North Bridger Bison
- 6:05 – Markโs new role at MeatEater
- 13:03 – Markโs next book timeline
- 18:28 – A new MeatEater podcast
- 21:43 – Getting into the books, starting with a Doug Peacock classic
- 28:17 – The first TR book Ed ever read
- 35:30 – The layers of Teddy Roosevelt
- 37:59 – Markโs next pick, a more recent option
- 42:21 – Edโs up, with a cliche?
- 47:55 – Bonus rec from Mark
- 50:33 – American Buffalo
- 1:03:03 – Navigating risk outdoors
- 1:07:48 – Pivoting to lighter adventure books
- 1:12:53 – An adventure book by a woman
- 1:17:57 – Markโs last choice and a caribou conversation
- 1:26:35 – And Edโs last choice, connecting with mountaineeringย
- 1:34:45 – Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Mark Kenyon
- Mark Kenyon on Instagram
- Ed and Markโs 10 Conservation Books
- Ed and Markโs 10 Books about the American West
- Markโs new role as MeatEaterโs Director of Conservation
- Backcountry Hunters and Anglers
- The first book Mark wrote: That Wild Country
- Markโs OG brand, Wired To Hunt, was focused on deer hunting and is now a MeatEater podcast.
- Markโs top adventure books: Grizzly Years, A Walk In The Park, The Emerald Mile, Deep Survival (the bonus), American Buffalo, A Walk In The Woods (a rollicking good time), Being Caribou and an extra bonus: Where Mountains Are Nameless
- Doug Peacock
- The Monkey Wrench Gang (Character Hayduke is based on Doug Peacock.)
- Ed interviewing Doug Peacock
- Peacockโs most recent book: Was It Worth It?
- Edโs top adventure books: The River of Doubt (the first Theodore Roosevelt book he ever read), Endurance, In The Kingdom of Ice, The Way Out, Thirty Below, Kiss or Kill
- Tribe, always.
- NOLS Wilderness Guide
- MeatEaterโs history of the fur trade
- Steve Rinella on Netflixย
- Devon OโNeill on M&P
- Couple of heavier books to consider: The Adventurer’s Son, Missoula
- At Home, another Bill Bryson pick from Ed.
- Cassidy Randall on M&P
- Heather Hansman on M&P
- The porcupine caribou herd and its population and habitat struggles.
- Henry Rollins, punk rock.
- Mountaineering classics: Into Thin Air, No Shortcuts to the Top
- For more book recs, sign up for Edโs bi-monthly book recommendations. Januaryโs and Februaryโs are ready.
- North Bridger Bison, supporters of M&P
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Yvon Chouinard โ The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
- Hampton Sides Returns: The Wild and Tragic Tale of Captain James Cook
- John Vaillant โ A Riveting Exploration of Fire
- Nicholas Triolo โ What the Circuitous Path Reveals
- Douglas Brinkley โ Exploring the Past to Find Inspiration for the Future
- Helen Rebanks โ โThe Farmerโs Wifeโ โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Sonnie Trotter โ On Flow, Family, and the Long Game
- Betsy Gaines Quammen Returns โ Myths, Curiosity, and Human Connection (Live at the Old Salt Festival)
- Dr. Sara Dant Returns โ โLosing Eden: An Environmental History of the American Westโ
- David Gessner Returns โ โA Travelerโs Guide to the End of the Worldโ
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
M&P IS LISTENER-SUPPORTED VIA PATREON
Stella Maria Baer โ Moons, Horses, and New Mexico Light
Stella Maria Baer is a Santa Feโbased painter whose work is deeply rooted in land, light, and place. Known for her luminous depictions of moons, desert skies, horses, and wide-open Southwestern landscapes, Stella often makes her own pigments by handโgrinding rocks, dirt, and minerals into paint that quite literally contains the places she portrays. In addition to her studio practice, she teaches intimate workshops on natural pigment painting for land-based artists on her New Mexico property, creating space for people to reconnect with their creativity, their hands, and the earth itself.
Stella grew up in New Mexico in a family of artistsโher mother was a weaver, her grandfather a photographer, her grandmother a sculptorโand spent summers on a Wyoming ranch that shaped her lifelong love of horses and open country. Though art was always around her, she initially pursued religion and philosophy, studying questions of desire, goodness, and the inherent value of land. Painting began not as a career move but as a private, prayerful practiceโdrawing birds in journals to quiet a busy mind. Over time, that contemplative discipline evolved into a full-time vocation, one that ultimately drew her back home to New Mexico after years on the East Coast, where she had found herself painting the desert from memory and longing.
In this conversation, we talk about that journeyโfrom philosophy classrooms and sacred poetry to moon paintings and hand-ground pigments. Stella shares how critique shaped her work in unexpected ways, how motherhood has influenced both her art and her priorities, and the powerful story behind rescuing her horses from kill pensโanimals that now carry deep personal meaning connected to her late mother. We also discuss the importance of play, silence, and being a beginner in a screen-saturated world. Stella rarely does interviews, so Iโm especially grateful for her willingness to sit down and speak so thoughtfully and authentically about her life and work. Itโs a reflective conversation about creativity, land, faith, and following oneโs unique artistic curiosity.
I feel like Stella and I only scratched the surface of her curiosity, land ethic, and artistic journey, so Iโll look forward to having her back for another conversation in the future. But for now, I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did.
Photos courtesy of Stella Maria Baer; the header image is a painting by Stella titled “The Year of the Fire Horse“
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
โฆor wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Intro and sponsor highlight
- 7:50 – Stellaโs origin story
- 12:00 – Art in Stellaโs childhood
- 14:35 – Zoning in and drawing birds
- 19:39 – Religion and philosophy degrees
- 21:58 – Wendell Berry and the Bible
- 25:07 – Responding to critiques
- 27:42 – New Mexico love
- 33:01 – Why moons?
- 36:07 – Importance of play
- 44:12 – How having kids changed things
- 50:54 – Stellaโs horses
- 55:28 – Stellaโs workshops
- 1:02:08 – Book recs
- 1:06:00 – Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Stella Maria Baer
- Stella on Instagram
- How to make a bird life list. Also a great app to identify birds and a great board game to play featuring birds.
- James Prosek on M&P
- Wendell Berry
- Making your own paint
- Stellaโs events
- Book recs: A Wrinkle In Time, The Divine Comedy (Danteโs Comedia), Braiding Sweetgrass
- Old Salt Festival June 2026
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Kelsey Morris Returns โ Going All In on Art
- Live at the Amon Carter Museum โ In Conversation with James Prosek and Spencer Wigmore
- Sammy Matsaw Jr. โ Salmon, Sovereignty, and the Long Work of Healing
- Logan Maxwell Hagege Returns โ On Taking Action & Finding Balance
- Kathie Sever โ Chainstitching, Craftsmanship, and Cosmic Western Wear
- Live with the Cowboy Artists of America
- Helen Rebanks โ โThe Farmerโs Wifeโ โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
M&P IS LISTENER-SUPPORTED VIA PATREON
A Joint Episode with The River Radius Podcast, featuring Sam Carter
Todayโs conversation is a joint episode between Mountain & Prairie and The River Radius podcast. Iโm joined by Sam Carter, the creator and host of The River Radius.
If youโre not already familiar with The River Radius, I give it my highest endorsement. Itโs the most thoughtful and well-crafted show out there about rivers, water, and the people connected to them. Sam has built something genuinely special, and heโs someone I consider both a friend and a collaborator. Iโve learned a great deal from the way he approaches storytelling, curiosity, and place.
For this episode, instead of a traditional interview, this is a two-way conversation in which Sam and I interview each otherโone weโre both releasing on our podcast feeds. Sam shared it on The River Radius feed earlier in January, and now Iโm sharing it here. We talk about how our podcasts came to be, what keeps us curious after hundreds of episodes, and how rivers, landscapes, and long projects shape the way we think about life and work. We also get into writing, responsibility, attention, grief, ambition, and what it actually looks like to build something slowly and with intention. I think youโll enjoy it.
As always, be sure to check the episode notes for detailed timestamps and links to everything we discuss. And I strongly encourage you to find The River Radius on your favorite podcast player, explore the archives, and give it a listen. Enjoy!
Photos courtesy of Sam Carter
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
โฆor wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Opening and sponsor highlight
- 5:46 – Ed introducing himself to Sam Carter and vice versa
- 9:19 – Why Sam started River Radius
- 11:49 – People are listening
- 16:36 – So โฆ what is the Mountain & Prairie podcast?
- 24:04 – What do Edโs daughters think of his job?
- 25:30 – How to make a podcast your full-time gig
- 32:47 – 2025 highlights from Sam
- 43:11 – Throughlines
- 48:24 – How Edโs changed the way he looks at the world
- 51:36 – Edโs 2025 highlights
- 59:15 – Whatโs the point of fly fishing?
- 1:03:11 – Whatโs in store for 2026?
- 1:12:17 – Sam and Edโs production strategies
- 1:25:42 – Edโs writing a book!
- 1:30:12 – What is a river for Ed Roberson?
- 1:33:56 – More questions for Ed from Samโs listeners
- 1:36:57 – And questions for Sam from Ed
- 1:42:16 – Parting words
Information Referenced:
- River Radius
- KDUR, where Sam got his podcasting start.
- Returning Rapids Project
- Hampton Sides, Edโs favorite author turned friend because of M&P.
- Samโs favorite episode of River Radius with Rob Macfarlane and his book Is A River Alive?
- And another standout River Radius episode about the Tijuana river
- Klamath River River Radius episode
- Ed interviewing Yvon Chouindard on M&P
- Various mentioned Yvon books: Let My People Go Surfing, Pheasant Tale Simplicity (the new one), Simple Fly Fishing
- The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt, Edโs inspiration for writing his book.
- Born To Run
- Freeflow Institute
- San Juan and Dolores Rivers, Samโs choices for river runs.
- Book rec from Sam: One River by Wade Davis
- Central Grasslands Roadmap
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Sammy Matsaw Jr. โ Salmon, Sovereignty, and the Long Work of Healing
- Devon OโNeil โ On Natureโs Power and the Price of Adventure
- Chris Keyes โ From Outside to RE:PUBLIC
- Brendan Leonard Returns โ On Writing, Teaching, and Staying Weird
- David Cronenwett โ Lessons from Jiu-Jitsu, On and Off the Mats
- George Hodgin Returns โ On Risk-Taking, Leadership, and the Future of Cannabis
- Scott Hulet: Reading + Writing + Surfing + Fishing + Traveling
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
M&P IS LISTENER-SUPPORTED VIA PATREON
Kelsey Morris Returns โ Going All In on Art
My guest today is Kelsey Morris, and this is her second time on the podcastโwhich feels long-overdue, because a lot has happened since we last talked.
When Kelsey first joined me nearly five years ago, she was balancing a full-time job while building her art career on the side. Shortly after that conversation, she did something many creative people dream about and very few actually do: she quit her job, changed her phone number, and went all-in on her work as an artist. Since then, sheโs built a deeply recognizable visual style, taken on major commissions, and quietly carved out a career that sits at the intersection of Western art, wildlife, and the modern outdoor world.
In this conversation, we pick up right where we left offโtalking about what it actually takes to make the leap into full-time creative work, how Kelsey thinks about balancing artistic curiosity with financial reality, and how discipline, professionalism, and showing up every day matter just as much as inspiration. We also talk about her evolving style, the pressure of deadlines, why some days the work just doesnโt click, and how sheโs learned when to push throughโand when to walk away.
We also get into some big life changes: closing her gallery, preparing for motherhood, spending time at her off-grid cabin in Alaska, and a major upcoming milestoneโbeing selected to paint the 2026 covers of Field & Stream, one of the most iconic names in outdoor media.
Kelsey is thoughtful, grounded, funny, and refreshingly honest about the realities of creative work. This is a conversation about art, ambition, patience, and building a life that actually fits the work you want to do.
I really loved catching up with herโand I think you will too.
Photos courtesy of Kelsey Morris
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
โฆor wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Introducing Kelsey Morris and sponsors
- 5:55 – Intro and going all in on art
- 10:42 – Marketing oneself
- 13:06 – Space to explore
- 15:57 – Individuality
- 20:05 – How to pay the bills
- 23:02 – Attention to detail
- 26:22 – Deadline torture
- 27:50 – The days when itโs not easy
- 32:40 – Milestones
- 37:04 – Who Kelsey looks up to
- 42:00 – The gallery
- 45:02 – Parenting
- 49:16 – The Alaska house
- 55:13 – Field & Stream exclusive
- 59:13 – Book recs
- 1:02:45 – Wrapping up
- 1:03:45 – Edโs goodbye and thank yous
Information Referenced:
- Kelsey Morris
- Kelseyโs first M&P episode
- Kim Wiggins, artist inspo
- Kelsey on Instagram
- Logan Hagege on M&P
- Meateater and the audio series, for which Kelsey designed digital covers.
- Yvon Chouinard on M&P
- Kelseyโs inspirations: Maxwell Alexander, Thomas Blackshear, Jeremy Lipking, Mark Maggiori, Glenn Dean
- Steve Rinellaโs fishing cabin in Alaska.
- Kelsey’s Alaska house videos on Instagram
- Field & Stream
- Field & Streamโs country revival
- Book recs: The Lonesome Dove series
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Yvon Chouinard โ The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
- Iris Gardner โ Living with Intention
- Helen Rebanks โ โThe Farmerโs Wifeโ โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Cassidy Randall โ The Untold Story of Denaliโs First All-Womenโs Ascent
- Cody Wellema โ After the Fire, Before Whatโs Next
- Ivan McClellan Returns โ From Behind the Lens to Center of the Arena
- Janie & Louise Roberson โ Chatting It Up With Their Old Man
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
M&P IS LISTENER-SUPPORTED VIA PATREON
Jason Gardner Returns โ Fire, Leadership, and What Really Matters

Jason Gardner is a retired Navy SEAL who now works as a top-level leadership instructor with Echelon Front. Over his thirty-year career in the SEAL teams, he served in combat operations in Somalia, Iraq, and Afghanistan, later becoming Command Master Chief of SEAL Team Five and Training Detachment. Since retiring from the Navy, Jason has worked with hundreds of organizations as a leadership instructor and strategic advisor, helping teams apply high-stakes leadership principles to business and life. He now lives in a remote corner of northeastern Washington with his wife, Iris, and their two children, where he spends his time working on their homestead and staying closely connected to the land.
This is Jasonโs second time on the podcast, and Iโd strongly recommend going back and listening to our first conversation from 2021, along with the episode I recorded with Iris. Those earlier interviews dig deeper into Jasonโs career, his transition out of the military, and the longer arc of their familyโs journeyโcontext that adds real depth to what we talk about here.
This conversation unfolds in two parts. The first half hour or so is a firsthand account of the Hope Fire, a fast-moving wildfire that came dangerously close to destroying Jason and Irisโs property and home last summer. Jason walks through the experience in detailโwhat itโs like to prepare for evacuation, to work through exhaustion and uncertainty, and to rely on firefighters, neighbors, and community when the stakes are painfully real.
In the second part, we widen the lens. Jason reflects on the lessons that emerged from the fireโabout leadership, humility, and responsibilityโand connects them to his own personal evolution over the last several years. We talk about PTSD, quitting drinking, the role psychedelic-assisted therapy played in his healing, and how practices like mindfulness, curiosity, kindness, and gratitude have reshaped how he approaches both life and leadership. Itโs an honest, grounded conversation about resilience, growth, and what it actually means to leadโฆ starting with yourself.
As always, be sure to check out the episode notes below for a full list of everything we discussed, with timestamps for everything. There are also links to all of the books and resources that Jason mentions. Enjoy!
Photos courtesy of Jason and Iris Gardner
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
โฆor wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- WILDFIRE
- 7:01 โ Intro, Jasonโs brush with a wildfire
- 11:45 โ Fire jumping ridgelines
- 14:05 โ Enter USAA
- 16:36 โ Community power
- 20:34 โ Enter the brush hog
- 25:26 โ Day three mental state
- 31:53 โ A big damn deal
- 35:09 โ A sense of deep pride
- LESSONS
- 40:59 โ Applying on-the-line lessons to the business world
- 45:20 โ The most important leadership trait
- 50:47 โ Challenge coins
- 55:05 โ A changed perspective
- 1:01:24 โ Dealing with cockiness
- 1:05:30 โ Jasonโs mental health journey
- 1:11:43 โ Quitting drinking
- 1:19:52 โ Self-reflection
- 1:21:34 โ Echelon Front Muster
- 1:27:06 โ Book recs and wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Jason Gardner
- Jason on Instagram
- Jasonโs first M&P episode
- Iris Gardnerโs M&P episode
- 2025 Washington fires
- A skidgine
- Extreme ownership
- Hotshot firefighters
- Tribe
- Jefferson Fisher and strategies for managing ego.
- Peter Attia, Tim Ferriss
- In Waves and War
- Echelon Front Muster
- The Need to Lead
- Book recs: The Dichotomy of Leadership, Leadership Strategy and Tactics, Never Split the Difference, The Next Conversation, Remarkably Bright Creatures, Stormlight archive
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Iris Gardner โ Living with Intention
- George Hodgin Returns โ On Risk-Taking, Leadership, and the Future of Cannabis
- Cody Wellema โ After the Fire, Before Whatโs Next
- Chris Keyes โ From Outside to RE:PUBLIC
- Dr. Alan Townsend โ Generosity & Curiosity in the Face of Tragedy
- โGood Fire, Bad Fireโ โ A Film and Discussion about Forest Health
- Curt Meine โ Aldo Leopoldโs Life, Work, and Enduring Legacy
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
M&P IS LISTENER-SUPPORTED VIA PATREON
Todd Ulizio โ Farming, Attention, and a Life Well Rooted
Todd Ulizio is the co-owner of Two Bear Farm, an organic vegetable farm in Whitefish, Montana, thatโs quietly become a cornerstone of the Flathead Valleyโs local food community. Alongside his wife Rebecca, Todd has spent nearly two decades growing food, building soil, and figuring out how to make a small, values-driven farm work in a world that doesnโt always make it easy.
Toddโs path to farming was anything but direct. He grew up in Connecticut and followed a traditional educational and career path, eventually becoming an accountant at a prestigious Big Six firm. Experiencing success but not fulfillment, he walked away from the business world to study wildlife biology and worked on projects ranging from brown bears in Alaska to wolverines in Montana. Over time, he began to see a common thread: most of the problems facing wildlife are really problems about how humans use landโand food, he realized, is where people interact with land every single day.
In this conversation, Todd and I talk about that winding pathโfrom accounting to wildlife biology to farmingโand what itโs taught him about work, burnout, stewardship, and attention. We get into the realities of small-scale farming, the pressures of building a business with your spouse, the health wake-up call that forced him to rethink everything, and the quieter, more grounded philosophy that now shapes his life and work. This is a thoughtful, honest conversation about choosing a meaningful path, learning to let go of what you canโt control, and finding a way to stay rooted in a rapidly changing world.
Photos courtesy of Todd Ulizio and Two Bear Farm
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
โฆor wherever you get your podcasts!
A HEARTFELT THANKS TO OUR SPONSORS:




RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Exciting announcement
- 2:33 – Intro
- 4:14 – Patreon + Sponsors + Old Salt
- 7:24 โ Where Todd grew up
- 11:38 โ Todd as a kid
- 13:07 โ Off to college
- 17:34 โ Ditching accounting
- 21:57 โ How change felt
- 24:18 โ Post University of Montana to Alaska
- 27:49 โ Alaska takeaways
- 31:36 โ Choosing farming
- 37:05 โ What helped Todd make an impact
- 40:08 โ A relationship forged in fire
- 43:32 โ Doubts in the moment?
- 47:39 โ Food system frustrations and burnout
- 52:43 โ How to lighten up
- 1:01:07 โ Dexter cows
- 1:02:34 โ Always going and stillness
- 1:09:02 โ The farm
- 1:14:56 โ Whatโs next
- 1:18:06 โ Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Two Bear Farm
- Student Conservation Association
- A Sand County Almanac, Braiding Sweetgrass and The Serviceberry are all books that led to Toddโs vision for making an impact on the environment.
- Curt Meine, an Aldo Leopold scholar, on M&P
- Edโs book list
- How Todd learned to lighten up: The Four Agreements, Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior, The Emerald podcast
- Dexter cows
- The Farmersโ Stand
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Kelly Beevers โ Connection, Collaboration, Conservation
- Helen Rebanks โ โThe Farmerโs Wifeโ โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Mark Easter โ Food, Soil, and Our Planetโs Future
- Kami Bakken โ How to Build a Life and Career in the Westโs Wide-Open Spaces
- Yvon Chouinard โ The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
- Chris Keyes โ From Outside to RE:PUBLIC
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
M&P IS LISTENER-SUPPORTED VIA PATREON
2025 Reads
A comprehensive list of every book I recommended in 2025, taken directly from myย bimonthly book recommendations emails.
The Extinction of Experience: Being Human in a Disembodied World by Christine Rosen – Ever since watching the hoverboard scene in Back to the Future II, Iโve dreamed about the fun-filled technological wonders awaiting me at some distant point in the future. Unfortunately, after finishing this excellent-yet-alarming book, I realized that the tech future is already hereโ and itโs more Freddy Krueger than Marty McFly. Rosen argues that internet-based technology has seeped into almost every aspect of our lives, acting as an often-unnoticed โmediator of experience.โ From online maps to endless digital photos to news to social media, these inescapable technologies change the way we experience reality, mostly for the worse. This is one of those books that supplied data and science to solidify the loose, uncomfortable ideas about technology already floating around in my head. She does not offer any actionable ideas about curbing technology usage, but she definitely increased my awareness (panic?) about the seriousness of the problem. [For actionable ideas, check out Cal Newportโs Digital Minimalism.]
Delorme Atlas & Gazetteer: Colorado – From 2005 until about 2012, Delorme Gazetteers guided me all over the West, from the desolate canyons of Utah to the most remote campsites in Montana. I bought a new Colorado version as a direct result of Rosenโs book above, mostly as a (probably silly) rejection of map apps. After it arrived, I found myself studying it intensely for long stretches of timeโ exploring all of the memorable mountains and rivers and campsites that Iโve had the privilege of visiting over the years. I was reminded how much I LOVE paper mapsโ the more detailed the better. I begrudgingly admit that I’ll rarely use it for driving, but I will definitely enjoy continuing to โread itโ and share it with my girls. [For some fascinating insights into how different cultures have thought about mapping terrain, read The Sea People by Christina Thompson.]
Pain Donโt Hurt: Meditations on Road House (Second Edition) by Sean T. Collins – Without question, this is the funniest book I have ever read. I cannot remember ever laughing so hard and for so long about anything, much less a book. Days and days of hysterical, tear-and-stomach-cramp inducing laughter. Itโs a collection of 365 essays about the greatest movie of all time, penned during 2019, soon after Collins had the passing thought, โI could write about Road House everyday for a year and never run out of things to say.โ He analyzes every detail of the movie (even scenes/characters Iโd never considered), and even offers a few new-to-me, mind-blowing theories (Jimmy is Brad Wesleyโs son?!). If you love Road House, you need to own this book. But you better act fast, because as of this moment, there are only 15 copies remaining of this limited edition run. [If youโre wondering โIs Ed referring to Swayze Road House or Gyllenhaal Road House?,โ please unsubscribe from this email right now.]
The Terminal List and True Believer by Jack Carr – Every so often, I pick up a book for nothing but pure fun and entertainment, just as I would watch such masterpieces as Rambo III, Commando, Predator, Red Dawn, and, of course, Road House. If you enjoy these types of films and also like to read the occasional novel, Jack Carr is your man. These are the first two titles in his James Reece series, which follow the revenge-fueled adventures of a former Navy SEAL with nothing to lose. These two books are nearly a combined 1,000 pages, and I cranked through them both in just a few days each. Pure action and fun and a perfect way to unplug from the real world for a while. Youโll see many more of these books in these emails, for sure. [On the far opposite end of the novel spectrum, Wendell Berryโs Jayber Crow is still in the lead as the best novel Iโve ever read. (Also, in the history of humanity, have Dynamic Duo of Carr and Berry ever been recommended in the same paragraph?)]
Surviving Denali: A Study of Accidents on Mount McKinley 1903-1990 by Jonathan Waterman – This book had been sitting on my shelf for years, unread. I randomly picked it up last month and couldnโt put it down. As the title explains, itโs a deep dive into all of the chaos that has gone down on North Americaโs highest peakโ a landscape with a knack for breaking and/or freezing humans in a surprisingly wide variety of ways. The responsible version of myself would recommend that anyone interested in climbing the mountain should read this book first. On the other hand, Iโm glad I didnโt read it before my two Denali trips, because I likely wouldโve been too scared to actually set foot on the Kahiltna Glacier. But anyone who enjoys mountaineering literature and history will love this book. Itโs the real dealโ extremely well written, highly educational, and not at all sensational or dramatic. [Speaking of Denali, Iโm almost done with Cassidy Randallโs amazing new book Thirty Below: The Harrowing and Heroic Story of the First All-Women’s Ascent of Denali. Stay tuned for my full recommendationโฆ and a podcast chat!]
American Flannel: How a Band of Entrepreneurs Are Bringing the Art and Business of Making Clothes Back Home by Steven Kurutz – For the last few weeks, Iโve been going deep into the history of natural fiber (i.e., cotton, wool, and leather) production in the United States. Long story short, the fabric/clothing industry had long been a bedrock of the US economy, until policy changes in the 1990s forced most of the production overseas. The aftermath has been a total economic disaster for many communities near and dear to my heart, particularly the milltowns in my homestate of North Carolina and many of the farming/ranching communities that produced the raw materials. Thankfully, I didnโt have to read a bunch of boring industry reports or academic papers to get my head around this subject. Instead, Kurutzโs fun-to-read, relatively short narrative gave me a thorough education on the topic via a bunch of colorful, crazy, rebellious characters who are hellbent on making American-made clothing popular and profitable (again). If you love against-the-odds business stories plus in-depth history, check this one out. [Itโs very far from the made-in-America ethos, but my favorite crazy-entrepreneur book isShoe Dog by Phil Knight.]
And three more great books written by equally great people:
- The Deck, Stories From a Pandemic by Taylor and Cody Watts – While fully grown adults (like me) struggle for years with their own writing projects, Taylor and Cody (still in high school!) publish a remarkably insightful book about their familyโs experience during the pandemic. Endorsed not just by me, but by people who actually know what they are doing, such as David James Duncan and Chris Dombrowski.
- Good Hunting for Kids: Growing Up to Be the Best Hunter You Can Be by Allen Morris Jones – Ever since I brought home 150 pounds of elk meat for my family, my girls have been fascinated by hunting. So Iโm thankful that my pal Allen Morris Jones applied his artistโs mind to making the subject more understandable, approachable, and entertaining for curious, outdoor-loving kiddos like mine.
- Echolocation by Sage Marshall – I continue to be poetry curious, but also continue to have no idea where to even start. Iโm always happy when a gifted outdoor/conservation-focused writer like Sage publishes a collection of poetry, because I know itโll be just what I need to read. I loved this book and will revisit it for many years to come.
Lorne: The Man Who Invented Saturday Night Live by Susan Morrison – Most of my middle school weekends revolved around the same routine: Saturday evening, program the VCR to record channel 7 from 11:27 PM – 1:03 AM; Sunday morning, laugh hysterically at SNL skits, while pausing it whenever my parents walked through the room so they wouldnโt hear the crass jokes and make me turn it off. The longer SNL has been on the air, the more Iโve been intrigued by Lorne Michaelsโ how is it possible to keep a mainstream TV show edgy, funny, and relevant for decades on end? How can a person stay true to their creative vision and have big-time commercial successโฆ without being considered a โsellout?โ If youโve ever wondered these thingsโ or just crave hilarious stories about Will Ferrellโ this is your book. At 600+ pages, itโs a big one, but I cranked through effortlessly. [My now-second-favorite SNL book is Live From New York: The Complete, Uncensored History of Saturday Night Live as Told by Its Stars, Writers, and Guests by Tom Shales. Itโs worth reading the entire thing just for the part about Steven Seagal.]
Thirty Below: The Harrowing and Heroic Story of the First All-Womenโs Ascent of Denali by Cassidy Randall – Up until Thirty Below, the only Denali-focused story Iโd read that accurately captured the intensity and insanity of North Americaโs highest peak was Jon Krakauerโs Club Denali, which was published in Eiger Dreams. Not only did Thirty Below satiate my desire for more Denali-focused writing, but it filled in an embarrassing gap in my knowledge: The first all-womenโs ascent in 1970. To me at least, 1970 doesnโt seem like all that long ago, but the obstacles and archaic ideas that these women had to overcome to simply get to the glacier, much less climb the dang thing, were insane. In many ways, climbing the mountain was the easy partโ dealing with all of the arrogant, patronizing blowhards who dismissed them was a feat of world-class endurance. Like any great writer, Cassidy combines meticulous research with engaging characters and top-notch writing, and, more importantly, she brings these long-overlooked women to the forefront of mountaineering history. [To learn about Cassidyโs process for writing the book, check out our fun podcast conversation.]
Uplifted: The Evolution of a Climbing Life by Sonnie Trotter – So many mountain adventure memoirs are written by hardcore athletes who seem to be driven by some sort of darknessโ an often anger-fueled desire to push beyond the edge to prove something either to themselves or their naysayers. In the world of rock climbing, Sonnie Trotter is about as hardcore as one can beโ yet heโs driven by gratitude, adventure for adventureโs sake, and, dare I say, fun. I get a kick out of stories of brooding souls as much as the next guy, but it was so refreshing to read about a world-class athlete whoโs driven by curiosity and optimism. As a bonus, the book is written in a refreshingly user-friendly styleโ itโs accessible to everyone, from veteran climbers to people like me, whose climbing career equals chaperoning their seven-year-old daughter at the climbing gym. You donโt have to zoom out much to see that, at its core, Uplifted is a book about turning your passion into a vocationโ a universal theme that most thoughtful people will connect with. [I chatted with Sonnie about the book, and he was just as friendly and humble in conversation as he is on the page.]
Savage Son by Jack Carr – This is the third book in Carrโs James Reece series, and if I were forced to rank them, I would say Savage Son is my favorite so far. If you watch enough interviews with Carr, youโll realize pretty quickly that heโs a PhD-level student of the thriller genre. Heโs been reading them voraciously since he was a kid and now interviews many thriller authors on his podcast, so he knows what makes for a page turner. Combine his thriller obsession with the discipline he brings to the craft of writing, and you have a Tom Clancy-esque writing empire. Not bad for a guy who didnโt start writing seriously until after retiring from a highly decorated 20-year career in the Navy. As many of yโall know, I donโt read much fiction, but Iโll be reading this entire series. [If youโre interested in Carr’s writing process, these two videos (one and two) offer some actionable insights.]
The Farmerโs Wife: My Life in Days by Helen Rebanks – An author friend of mine sent me Helenโs book along with one simple endorsement: โItโll knock your socks off.โ Well, it knocked them off so aggressively that I begged the team at the Old Salt Festival to fly Helen across the ocean so I could interview her on stage at this summerโs event. While Iโm not a farmer or a mother or a wife or much of a cook, I connected deeply with Helenโs story. Through beautiful prose, she celebrates the โmundaneโ parts of lifeโ the chaos of raising children, the stress of trying to keep all the balls in the air, and the often futile attempts to find balance everything professionally, financially, and personally. You know, the regular stuff that actually makes up most of life. Even though, on the surface, our lives and careers are vastly different, I found great solace in Helenโs approach to celebrating both the challenges and the joys of life, of embracing gratitude and giving others grace. When it comes to those ways of thinking, I need all the help I can get! [One-third of Nick Offermanโs Where the Deer and the Antelope Play is devoted to his adventures with Helen and her husband James on their farm in the UK.]
Mark Twain by Ron Chernow – Like The Power Broker, this monster of a biography is taking me a very long time to read. But Iโm far enough in to go ahead and give it my full-blown endorsement. Like so many legends of American history, Twain is a fascinating human to learn about, but if I could go back in time, I highly doubt Iโd enjoy spending more than a few hours with him in person. I have the utmost respect for how he pulled himself out of poverty and staked his claim as a writer, humorist, and pundit, but, even with Chernowโs masterful explanations, I cannot understand why a person would be so brash, pugilistic, and impulsive. Pick any larger-than-life figure, and the story is so often the same: The personality traits that make them successful are also the most self-destructive thorns in their sides. But thankfully, Iโm not looking for a new best friend, Iโm looking for a great storyโ and Chernow nails it. Twain is so complex, ever-evolving, and hypocritical that it takes a full 1,000 pages to fully examine his wild life and personality. Iโll continue to happily chip away at this behemoth between more reasonably sized books. [My favorite book that demonstrates the light and dark sides of larger-than-life personalities is The Last American Man by Elizabeth Gilbert.]
A Worthy Expedition: The History of NOLS by Kate Dernocoeur – Back in 1999, I managed to talk my way into a semesterโs worth of college credit in exchange for spending three months learning to climb, backpack, and sail around the Pacific Northwest with the National Outdoor Leadership School (NOLS). Founded by yet another larger-than-life character, Paul Petzoldt, NOLS unceremoniously began 60 summers ago in Wyomingโs Wind River Range. Since then, it has evolved into the premier outdoor education and leadership school in the world. This book combines hardcore historical research with a fun-to-read writing style and is mandatory reading for anyone who values the outdoors and experiential education. Iโm obviously biased, but I feel like this book should be prominently stocked in every REI and mom-and-pop outdoor store in the country. [Another NOLS book that holds a perpetual, armโs-length spot on my desk is Wilderness Wisdom.]
The Swamp: The Everglades, Florida, and the Politics of Paradise by Michael Grunwald – I was browsing a local bookstore while visiting the Carolina coast, and this book caught my eye. Having never heard of it, I was instantly convinced to buy it by the glowing blurb from my all-time favorite Florida writer, Carl Hiassen: โThe best thing Iโve ever read about the Everglades.โ I cannot overstate how much I enjoyed this book. In the style of Hampton Sides or David Grann, Grunwald takes dense, complex history and makes it read like a novel. Heโs also surprisingly funny, which is quite an accomplishment when you consider how depressing the destruction of the Everglades has been. As much as Iโm intrigued by Florida, what struck me most about this book was how our conquest of the Everglades seemed to become a blueprint for our conquests out West. From the tactics used to eliminate the Indigenous populations, to the obsession with making land โproductive,โ to the eventual bone-headed development (i.e., destruction) of a fragile ecosystem, the history of the Everglades allowed me to better understand the history of many of our imperiled wild places. [Sara Dantโs Losing Eden is my go-to for learning about the environmental history of the western U.S.]
Grasslands: Painting the American Prairie by James Prosek – James has built a legendary career on his process of becoming fully obsessed with a certain aspect of ecology, relentlessly exploring that idea through art and writing, then producing one-of-a-kind work that communicates his discoveries. Iโve recommended many of his books in these emails, with one of my favorites being Ocean Fishes. In this book, he turns his attention to grasslands and dives into not just specific species of the Great Plains, but into exploring the ideas of what concepts like โnative speciesโ even mean. He combines his philosopherโs mind with his artistโs eye, drawing, painting, and sculpting artwork that will make you reconsider your relationship with the land next time you’re cruising through wide-open prairies.
Burn by Peter Heller – Back in the spring of 2019, I read Peter Hellerโs The Dog Stars, which painted a way-too-vivid picture of life in Colorado after a global pandemic. I remember thinking, โYeah, thatโs pretty scary, but it could never happen.โ Then one year later, in the spring of 2020, we all know what happened. When I finished Burn, an excellent-but-terrifying story of a violent societal uprising followed by the governmentโs brutal response, I thought, โYeah, thatโs scare and it could happen.โ But I guess the sign of a good novel is that it actually makes you feel something, and, now, every time I make the mistake of looking at internet โnews,โ I think about Burn. As is the case with all of Hellerโs novels, this one is action-packed, fast-paced, and full of memorable, flawed, complex characters. Itโs a great read, and, for me at least, definitely worth the trade-off of a little extra anxiety. [If you want the opposite of anxiety, read Wendell Berryโs Jayber Crow.]
The Way Out: A True Story of Survival in the Heart of the Rockies by Devon OโNeil – If you listen to my podcast, then youโre already familiar with The Way Out. And if youโre a fan of Krakauer’s Into the Wild or Into Thin Air, or Jungerโs The Perfect Storm, then youโll love this book. Itโs the story of a low-key backcountry ski trip gone horribly wrong, one epic survival story, one tragic death, and the tight-knit mountain community that has to come to grips with heartbreak and loss. This book is especially important for those of us who are drawn to adventure in wild placesโand especially those of us who try to explain away the inherent risk that comes with spending time in potentially deadly environments. Devon was the perfect person to tell this storyโthe compassion and empathy he brings to his reporting is obvious, and his commitment to telling the story completely and fairly is a case study in responsible journalism. A very important book. [If you havenโt already, check out my conversation with Devon.]
Simple Fly Fishing and Pheasant Tail Simplicity by Yvon Chouinard, Craig Mathews, and Mauro Mazza – These two books (and the next one below) fall into the category of โYou might think this is a book about X, but itโs actually about Y.โ On the surface, these books seem to be about how to become a better fly fishermanโbut not through buying a truckload of expensive gear or filling your vest with 2,000 fancy-looking flies. The authors, who are all more accomplished anglers than at least 99.99% of the people reading this email, insist that the secret to mastering the art of fly fishing is to SIMPLIFY. In the case of Simple Fly Fishing, throw away your reel. In the case of Pheasant Tail Simplicity, use only one type of fly. By applying constraints, embracing curiosity, and reducing the process to its purest essence, one can finally begin the journey of becoming a master. And whaddaya know, this idea of embracing simplicity can also be applied to all parts of our lives: from work to play, creative endeavors to interpersonal relationships. As society becomes increasingly complicated, the idea of simplification becomes increasingly attractive. [I had the great pleasure of chatting with Yvon Chouinard about simplicity in fishing and lifeโfull of laughs, full of wisdom.]
Little Woodchucks: Offerman Woodshopโs Guide to Tools and Tomfoolery by Nick Offerman with Lee Buchanan – On the surface, this is a fun, funny, photo-filled instruction manual for teaching kids how to build things from wood, by hand. Nick covers everything from choosing your tools, to setting up your workspace, to completing 12 different projects, including a box kite, a little free library, and a toy truck. Itโs real funโthe kind of rewarding undertaking that lets children use their brains, learn a skill, and create a real-world, tactile object that they can hold in their hands. But when you dig a little deeper, Little Woodchucks is about rejecting the brain-rotting pull of the internet, shunning the hypnotic pull of social media, and working alongside like-minded people to create useful, pride-inducing keepsakes. In my humble opinion, no matter our age, we will probably all benefit from a little less swiping and more real-world craftsmanship. (If youโre a bigger woodchuck whoโs looking for more advanced projects and fun/wise Offerman-esque philosophy, check out Nickโs Good Clean Fun.]
Dirtbag Billionaire: How Yvon Chouinard Built Patagonia, Made a Fortune, and Gave It All Away by David Gelles – Even though Iโd spent the past 20 years reading and watching pretty much everything about Yvon Chouinard and Patagonia, I learned a ton from this biography. Gelles is an accomplished New York Times journalist who, after ripping Jack Welch to shreds, turned his attention to Chouinard. (Spoiler alert: He seems to admire Yvon a lot more than Jack.) Gelles chronicles Chouinardโs life from rambunctious youngster to climbing icon to business innovator to super philanthropist who, in 2022, gave his multi-billion-dollar company away. While I loved the insights into Chouinardโs personality and vision, I especially enjoyed learning more about his colleagues and teammates who played invaluable roles in Patagoniaโs success, particularly Kris Tompkins. Gelles paints a fair picture of the entire Patagonia enterprise, exploring the contradictions and paradoxes of building a high-impact consumer goods company that is also real-deal committed to making the world a better place. A good reminder that nothing is straightforward, everything is nuanced, and the most interesting people are complex. [The ethos of Nike founder Phil Knight couldnโt be further from Yvonโs, but Knightโs memoir Shoe Dog is one of my all-time favorite business memoirs.]
Apple in China: The Capture of the World’s Greatest Company by Patrick McGee – Back when I was in business school, my least favorite subject, hands down, was operations. Endless yammering about factories, assembly lines, โlean manufacturing,โ โSix Sigma black belts,โ and a bunch of other lingo that my brain seemed violently allergic to. So I was quite surprised to find myself completely engrossed by a 400+-page book about the global supply chain that produces iPhones. But seriouslyโฆ it was fascinating. And at timesโฆ infuriating. The quick summary is that a small number of Chinese manufacturers patiently and ingeniously built a system that all but forced Apple to not only hire them to assemble its products, but also to build its factories, train its workers, and inject billions and billions of dollars of economic stimulus into the Chinese economy. And over the course of three or four decades, China grew into the economic and political powerhouse that it is today. Now that itโs finished helping China, perhaps Apple can figure out a way to inject a few hundred billion into its home countryโs public schools and/or healthcare system. [Another head-spinning business book that I think of often is When McKinsey Comes to Town by Walt Bogdanich and Michael Forsythe.]
The Devilโs Hand by Jack Carr – You have probably noticed that Jack Carr novels have a seemingly permanent position in my book recommendations. This will continue until I have read them all. They’re not for everyone, but if you like movies like (or YouTube clips from) Rambo, Commando, Man on Fire, Taken, John Wick, The Equalizer, Bourne Identity, etc., I can guarantee youโll love these books. [For a thoroughly hilarious take on the best of this type of movie, read Pain Donโt Hurt: 365 Meditations on Road House by Sean T. Collins. Itโs a masterpiece.]
Sammy Matsaw Jr. โ Salmon, Sovereignty, and the Long Work of Healing
Sammy Matsaw Jr. is the Director of the Columbia Basin Program at The Nature Conservancy, where he works at the intersection of salmon recovery, tribal sovereignty, and large-scale river restoration across one of the most complex watersheds in North America. In this role, Sammy helps guide conservation strategies that span state lines, political boundaries, and cultural historiesโwhile keeping people, relationships, and responsibility at the center of the work.
Sammy grew up on the Shoshone-Bannock Reservation, surrounded by salmon stories, land-based learning, and a deep sense of responsibility to place. He served in the U.S. military, including combat deployments overseas, before returning home to heal, reconnect, and rebuildโeventually earning advanced degrees in ecology, policy, and conservation science. Along the way, heโs navigated life as a soldier, scientist, ceremonial practitioner, husband, father, and now grandfather, carrying Indigenous knowledge forward while engaging directly with Western institutions and systems.
In this conversation, we talk about salmon restoration as a healing journeyโnot just for rivers, but for communities and cultures shaped by loss, displacement, and change. We dig into Indigenous knowledge alongside Western science, the role of humility and trust in conservation, and why Sammy believes real progress only happens through relationships and long-term commitment. We also explore his vision for the Columbia Basin, his leadership inside TNC, and what it means to show upโday after dayโwith curiosity, care, and what he calls โbarefoot trust-building.โ
This is a thoughtful, hopeful, and vulnerable conversation, and I greatly appreciate Sammy taking the time to chat with me. I hope you enjoy.
Photos courtesy of TNC: header ยฉ Ben Herndon, inset courtesy of River Newe
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
โฆor wherever you get your podcasts!
EPISODE PARTNER:
This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Colorado chapter of The Nature Conservancy and TNC chapters throughout the Western United States. Guided by science and grounded by decades of collaborative partnerships, The Nature Conservancy has a long-standing legacy of achieving lasting results to create a world where nature and people thrive.
During the last week of every month throughout 2025, Mountain & Prairie will be delving into conversations with a wide range of The Nature Conservancyโs leaders, partners, collaborators, and stakeholders, highlighting the myriad of conservation challenges, opportunities, and solutions here in the American West and beyond. You can access all of the episodes here.
To learn more about The Nature Conservancyโs impactful work in the West and around the world, visit www.nature.org
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 3:00 – Intro, where and how Sammy grew up
- 10:03 – Sammyโs decision to join the militaryย
- 15:34 – Readjusting to home
- 20:48 – What helps heal
- 24:58 – Sammyโs academic journey
- 32:12 – Salmon work
- 39:09 – Entry into TNC
- 43:55 – Salmon restoration as a healing journey
- 50:09 – Layers of the job
- 57:31 – Book recs
- 1:01:18 – Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Sammy Matsaw Jr.
- Shoshone-Bannock Tribes
- Indigenous people in the Vietnam War
- Columbia River Basin program
- River of Return, a film featuring Sammy and his wife, Jessica
- River Newe, Sammy and Jessicaโs organization
- Book recs: How It Is: The Native American Philosophy of V. F. Cordova, King of Fish, Black Elk Speaks
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Elliot Ross: Where Landscape, Justice, and Storytelling Meet
- Helen Augare Carlson & Dylan DesRosier โ Land, Language, and Stewardship in the Blackfeet Nation
- Mauricia Baca โ An Empathetic Approach to Nevadaโs Conservation Challenges
- Beatriz Soto โ Bridging Cultural Divides & Building Equitable Communities
- Celene Hawkins & Izabella Ruffino โ Tribal Partnerships, Indigenous Voices, Cutting-Edge Conservation
- Rebecca Clarren โ โThe Cost of Free Landโ
- Lorelei Cloud โ Solving Modern-Day Challenges with Ancient Tribal Wisdom
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
Edโs Appearance on โMy Favorite Thingsโ
Todayโs episode is a bit of a departure from the usual format: Iโm re-sharing a recent conversation I had on my friend Brendan Leonardโs new podcast, My Favorite Things. Iโm sure most of yall are already familiar with Brendanโs work, but for those of you who arenโt, heโs an author, illustrator, filmmaker, and creator of Semi-Rad.ย
Brendanโs new podcast is built around a simple but fascinating premise: conversations about the books, films, art, and creative works that have helped shape a personโs life and career.
In this conversation, we spend less time on what I do, and more time on whatโs influenced how I think and live โ from Theodore Roosevelt and Sebastian Junger to a Winslow Homer painting and a movie thatโs been oddly entertaining and instructive over the years. (I bet yโall can guess the movie.)
There are already several excellent episodes live featuring thoughtful, interesting people, and Brendan has created something both entertaining and instructive with this podcast. If you enjoy this conversation, Iโd encourage you to subscribe, explore the rest of the episodes, and share the show with any of your friends who might enjoy it.Thanks so much for listening and hereโs my appearance on My Favorite Things.
Ed’s Favorite Things:
- 1. Liner notes from Jimmy Buffettโs 1990s albums
- 2. The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt by Edmund Morris: Publisherโs page | Bookshop | Amazon
- 3. The Gulf Stream by Winslow Homer
- 4. Tribe by Sebastian Junger: Publisherโs page | Bookshop | Amazon
- 5. Road House (the original)
- Other things we mentioned:
- Jack Johnsonโs cover of Jimmy Buffettโs A Pirate Looks at Forty
- The Rewatchables Road House episode
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
… or wherever you get your podcasts!
โ
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 2:10: Background โ Mountain & Prairie, family, and the โstrenuous lifeโ
- 5:00: Favorite Thing #1 โ Jimmy Buffett liner notes
- 11:30: Favorite Thing #2 โ The Rise of Theodore Roosevelt
- 20:00: Favorite Thing #3 โ Winslow Homerโs The Gulf Stream
- 28:15: Favorite Thing #4 โ Tribe by Sebastian Junger
- 39:30: Favorite Thing #5 โ Road House
- 52:15: Closing reflections
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Yvon Chouinard โ The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
- Nick Offerman โ Empathy, Nuance, & Good Hard Work
- Kristine Tompkins โ Nothing to Lose
- Hampton Sides Returns: The Wild and Tragic Tale of Captain James Cook
- Douglas Brinkley โ Exploring the Past to Find Inspiration for the Future
- Joe Schobert โ From NFL Pro Bowler to Western Conservation Advocate
- Scott Hulet: Reading + Writing + Surfing + Fishing + Traveling
- George Hodgin Returns โ On Risk-Taking, Leadership, and the Future of Cannabis
Visit the podcast page for a full, searchable list of episodes
Mike Schaedel – Restoring Balance to Fire-Adapted Landscapes
Mike Schaedel is the Western Montana Forest Restoration Director for The Nature Conservancy, where he leads some of the most ambitious and collaborative forest restoration work happening anywhere in the West. Based in Missoula, Mike works at the intersection of science, community partnerships, and land stewardshipโhelping restore fire-adapted forests, reduce wildfire risk, and improve the health and resilience of landscapes across the region.
Mikeโs career path is super interesting and anything but traditional. He grew up in Portland, fell in love with the mountains through rock climbing, and eventually landed in Missoula, where the combination of wild landscapes and a rich literary community drew him in. After earning an undergraduate degree in creative writing, he found his way into forestry and fire ecology through conservation corps work, hands-on restoration experience, and a graduate program focused on forest dynamics and fire.
In this conversation, Mike offers a clear overview of how Western Montanaโs forests came to look the way they do todayโshaped by millennia of tribal burning, transformed by railroad-era land grants and industrial logging, and altered further by a century of fire suppression. He explains why effective restoration now depends on combining mechanical thinning with prescribed fire and on working across ownership boundaries with partners ranging from local communities to tribes and federal agencies. We also discuss some of the innovative collaborative efforts underway in the region, as well as a memorable story of a prescribed burn that came together through quick problem-solving and deep trust.
This is a rich, informative, and hopeful conversation about what it takes to restore forests at scaleโand why the future of these landscapes depends on both ecological understanding and strong community partnerships. Enjoy!
Photos courtesy of TNC: header ยฉ Steven Gnam, inset ยฉ Jeremy Roberts
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
โฆor wherever you get your podcasts!
EPISODE PARTNER:
This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Colorado chapter of The Nature Conservancy and TNC chapters throughout the Western United States. Guided by science and grounded by decades of collaborative partnerships, The Nature Conservancy has a long-standing legacy of achieving lasting results to create a world where nature and people thrive.
During the last week of every month throughout 2025, Mountain & Prairie will be delving into conversations with a wide range of The Nature Conservancyโs leaders, partners, collaborators, and stakeholders, highlighting the myriad of conservation challenges, opportunities, and solutions here in the American West and beyond. You can access all of the episodes here.
To learn more about The Nature Conservancyโs impactful work in the West and around the world, visit www.nature.org
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 3:02 โ Intro, Mikeโs love for Missoula
- 6:04 โ Getting a creative writing degree
- 8:21 โ And fighting back into forestry
- 12:26 โ Early writing influences
- 13:39 โ Switching sides of the brain
- 15:32 โ First job out of grad school
- 20:08 โ And that work now
- 23:38 โ Checkerboard landownership
- 33:04 โ Conservation accomplishment
- 34:56 โ Fitting in forest health
- 39:33 โ Fire scars
- 45:52 โ The Big Burn
- 52:59 โ Fire playing a beneficial role
- 58:51 โ And the role mill workers play
- 1:02:03 โ Projects down the pipeline
- 1:12:00 โ Book recs
- 1:13:49 โ Parting words
Information Referenced:
- Michael Schaedel, Western Montana Forest Restoration Director
- Reserved Treaty Rights Lands Program: The Power of Partnership
- David James Duncan
- Gary Snyder
- Northwest Youth Core in Eugene, Oregon
- Montana Conservation Corps
- Dr. Andrew Larson at the University of Montana
- DJD on M&P
- Nick Triolo on M&P
- Thoreau and Emerson
- Beat poets
- TNC buying Plum Creek land in Montanaโs Flathead Beacon
- Checkerboard landownership across the American West.
- A River Runs Through It, set in the Blackfoot Valley. (Norman Maclean had a cabin in Seeley Lake, Montana.)
- Blackfoot Challenge
- Montana Legacy Project
- The Big Burn by Timothy Egan
- Pyramid Lumber in Seeley Lake closing
- Book recs: Or, rather, a scientist rec: Steve Arno.
- Prescribed fire training camps hosted by TNC
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Kristine Tompkins โ Nothing to Lose
- Carli Kierstead โ Wyoming Forests and the Work of Keeping Water Flowing
- Celene Hawkins and Taylor Hawes โ Navigating the Next Era of the Colorado River
- Rob Addington โ A Deep Dive into Western Wildfires and Forest Health
- Matt Cahill โ A Deep Dive into the Sagebrush Sea
- Chris Keyes โ From Outside to RE:PUBLIC
- Yvon Chouinard โ The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
SHED SESH: September & October 2025 Book Recommendations
This month marks ten full years of my Bimonthly Book Recommendationsโa decade of weird little paragraphs about the books that grab my scattered attention. Whether youโve been here since the beginning or signed up five minutes ago, thank you. Iโm still baffled anyone reads these things, but Iโm grateful all the same.
To mark the occasion, I recorded a late-night solo episode from The Shed, diving deeper into each of my September & October picks: why I chose them, what stayed with me, and the sometimes-unexpected lessons I gleaned from each of them. Or you could just describe it as a guy sitting in his garden shed talking to himself. Your choice.
You can read all of the recommendations below, or, if youโre clamoring to receive more emails, you can sign up for the list here:
Thanks for listening, thanks for reading, and hereโs to 10 more great years of great books.
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
… or wherever you get your podcasts!
โ
RESOURCES:
Books Discussed:
- 00:00 โ Intro + 10 years of book-rec emails
- 05:45 โ Burn by Peter Heller
- 11:00 โ Jayber Crow by Wendell Berry (related rec)
- 11:45 โ The Way Out by Devon OโNeil
- 17:10 โ Simple Fly Fishing by Yvon Chouinard
- 21:50 โ Pheasant Tail Simplicity by Yvon Chouinard
- 25:40 โ Little Woodchucks by Nick Offerman
- 29:20 โ Dirtbag Billionaire by David Gelles
- 35:00 โ Shoe Dog by Phil Knight (related rec)
- 35:55 โ Apple in China by Patrick McGee
- 40:45 โ When McKinsey Comes to Town (related rec)
- 42:10 โ The Devilโs Hand by Jack Carr
- 46:15 โ Closing thoughts + how the book list began
The Book Recommendations:
Burn by Peter Heller – Back in the spring of 2019, I read Peter Hellerโs The Dog Stars, which painted a way-too-vivid picture of life in Colorado after a global pandemic. I remember thinking, โYeah, thatโs pretty scary, but it could never happen.โ Then one year later, in the spring of 2020, we all know what happened. When I finished Burn, an excellent-but-terrifying story of a violent societal uprising followed by the governmentโs brutal response, I thought, โYeah, thatโs scare and it could happen.โ But I guess the sign of a good novel is that it actually makes you feel something, and, now, every time I make the mistake of looking at internet โnews,โ I think about Burn. As is the case with all of Hellerโs novels, this one is action-packed, fast-paced, and full of memorable, flawed, complex characters. Itโs a great read, and, for me at least, definitely worth the trade-off of a little extra anxiety. [If you want the opposite of anxiety, read Wendell Berryโs Jayber Crow.]
The Way Out: A True Story of Survival in the Heart of the Rockies by Devon OโNeil – If you listen to my podcast, then youโre already familiar with The Way Out. And if youโre a fan of Krakauer’s Into the Wild or Into Thin Air, or Jungerโs The Perfect Storm, then youโll love this book. Itโs the story of a low-key backcountry ski trip gone horribly wrong, one epic survival story, one tragic death, and the tight-knit mountain community that has to come to grips with heartbreak and loss. This book is especially important for those of us who are drawn to adventure in wild placesโand especially those of us who try to explain away the inherent risk that comes with spending time in potentially deadly environments. Devon was the perfect person to tell this storyโthe compassion and empathy he brings to his reporting is obvious, and his commitment to telling the story completely and fairly is a case study in responsible journalism. A very important book. [If you havenโt already, check out my conversation with Devon.]
Simple Fly Fishing and Pheasant Tail Simplicity by Yvon Chouinard, Craig Mathews, and Mauro Mazza – These two books (and the next one below) fall into the category of โYou might think this is a book about X, but itโs actually about Y.โ On the surface, these books seem to be about how to become a better fly fishermanโbut not through buying a truckload of expensive gear or filling your vest with 2,000 fancy-looking flies. The authors, who are all more accomplished anglers than at least 99.99% of the people reading this email, insist that the secret to mastering the art of fly fishing is to SIMPLIFY. In the case of Simple Fly Fishing, throw away your reel. In the case of Pheasant Tail Simplicity, use only one type of fly. By applying constraints, embracing curiosity, and reducing the process to its purest essence, one can finally begin the journey of becoming a master. And whaddaya know, this idea of embracing simplicity can also be applied to all parts of our lives: from work to play, creative endeavors to interpersonal relationships. As society becomes increasingly complicated, the idea of simplification becomes increasingly attractive. [I had the great pleasure of chatting with Yvon Chouinard about simplicity in fishing and lifeโfull of laughs, full of wisdom.]
Little Woodchucks: Offerman Woodshopโs Guide to Tools and Tomfoolery by Nick Offerman with Lee Buchanan – On the surface, this is a fun, funny, photo-filled instruction manual for teaching kids how to build things from wood, by hand. Nick covers everything from choosing your tools, to setting up your workspace, to completing 12 different projects, including a box kite, a little free library, and a toy truck. Itโs real funโthe kind of rewarding undertaking that lets children use their brains, learn a skill, and create a real-world, tactile object that they can hold in their hands. But when you dig a little deeper, Little Woodchucks is about rejecting the brain-rotting pull of the internet, shunning the hypnotic pull of social media, and working alongside like-minded people to create useful, pride-inducing keepsakes. In my humble opinion, no matter our age, we will probably all benefit from a little less swiping and more real-world craftsmanship. (If youโre a bigger woodchuck whoโs looking for more advanced projects and fun/wise Offerman-esque philosophy, check out Nickโs Good Clean Fun.]
Dirtbag Billionaire: How Yvon Chouinard Built Patagonia, Made a Fortune, and Gave It All Away by David Gelles – Even though Iโd spent the past 20 years reading and watching pretty much everything about Yvon Chouinard and Patagonia, I learned a ton from this biography. Gelles is an accomplished New York Times journalist who, after ripping Jack Welch to shreds, turned his attention to Chouinard. (Spoiler alert: He seems to admire Yvon a lot more than Jack.) Gelles chronicles Chouinardโs life from rambunctious youngster to climbing icon to business innovator to super philanthropist who, in 2022, gave his multi-billion-dollar company away. While I loved the insights into Chouinardโs personality and vision, I especially enjoyed learning more about his colleagues and teammates who played invaluable roles in Patagoniaโs success, particularly Kris Tompkins. Gelles paints a fair picture of the entire Patagonia enterprise, exploring the contradictions and paradoxes of building a high-impact consumer goods company that is also real-deal committed to making the world a better place. A good reminder that nothing is straightforward, everything is nuanced, and the most interesting people are complex. [The ethos of Nike founder Phil Knight couldnโt be further from Yvonโs, but Knightโs memoir Shoe Dog is one of my all-time favorite business memoirs.]
Apple in China: The Capture of the World’s Greatest Company by Patrick McGee – Back when I was in business school, my least favorite subject, hands down, was operations. Endless yammering about factories, assembly lines, โlean manufacturing,โ โSix Sigma black belts,โ and a bunch of other lingo that my brain seemed violently allergic to. So I was quite surprised to find myself completely engrossed by a 400+-page book about the global supply chain that produces iPhones. But seriouslyโฆ it was fascinating. And at timesโฆ infuriating. The quick summary is that a small number of Chinese manufacturers patiently and ingeniously built a system that all but forced Apple to not only hire them to assemble its products, but also to build its factories, train its workers, and inject billions and billions of dollars of economic stimulus into the Chinese economy. And over the course of three or four decades, China grew into the economic and political powerhouse that it is today. Now that itโs finished helping China, perhaps Apple can figure out a way to inject a few hundred billion into its home countryโs public schools and/or healthcare system. [Another head-spinning business book that I think of often is When McKinsey Comes to Town by Walt Bogdanich and Michael Forsythe.]
The Devilโs Hand by Jack Carr – You have probably noticed that Jack Carr novels have a seemingly permanent position in my book recommendations. This will continue until I have read them all. They’re not for everyone, but if you like movies like (or YouTube clips from) Rambo, Commando, Man on Fire, Taken, John Wick, The Equalizer, Bourne Identity, etc., I can guarantee youโll love these books. [For a thoroughly hilarious take on the best of this type of movie, read Pain Donโt Hurt: 365 Meditations on Road House by Sean T. Collins. Itโs a masterpiece.]
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Helen Rebanks โ โThe Farmerโs Wifeโ โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Douglas Brinkley โ Exploring the Past to Find Inspiration for the Future
- Yvon Chouinard โ The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
- Nicholas Triolo โ What the Circuitous Path Reveals
- Cassidy Randall โ The Untold Story of Denaliโs First All-Womenโs Ascent
- Scott Hulet: Reading + Writing + Surfing + Fishing + Traveling
- Mark Easter โ Food, Soil, and Our Planetโs Future
- Kevin Grange โ The Secret Lives of Grizzlies
Visit the podcast page for a full, searchable list of episodes
Devon OโNeil โ On Natureโs Power and the Price of Adventure
Devon OโNeil is a journalist, author, and longtime friend of mine whose new book The Way Out: A True Story of Survival in the Heart of the Rockies is one of the best pieces of outdoor nonfiction Iโve read in years. The book tells the harrowing true story of a backcountry ski trip near Leadville, Colorado, that turned tragicโand the years-long process of understanding what really happened, and how a mountain town wrestled with loss, resilience, and the complicated relationship we all have with risk and wild places. Itโs gripping, deeply reported, and beautifully writtenโequal parts survival epic, community portrait, and meditation on how we find meaning in the aftermath of tragedy.
Devon has spent more than two decades as a writer and reporter based in Summit County, Colorado, covering everything from adventure sports and avalanches to the cultural and emotional undercurrents of life in mountain towns. Before turning his attention to this book project, he worked in newspapers, wrote for Outside, Menโs Journal, and ESPN.com, and somehow managed to balance all of that with being a hardcore athlete and a dedicated dad and husband. Heโs one of those rare writers whose empathy and endurance match the people that he writes about.
In this conversation, Devon and I dig into the story behind The Way Outโhow he first heard about the tragedy, earned the trust of a close-knit community, and spent years piecing together a complete and compassionate account. We talk about the ethical tightrope of telling other peopleโs hardest stories, how his own brushes with danger shaped his perspective on risk, and what this project taught him about the fine line between adventure and recklessness. We also get into his childhood growing up on a sailboat in the Virgin Islands, his evolution as a journalist and athlete, and the hard-earned wisdom that comes from spending a lifetime chasing stories in the mountains.
The Way Out is available now wherever you get your books, so follow the links here to grab your copy. Big thanks to Devon for the chat, and thank you for listening. Enjoy!
—
Photos courtesy of Devon O’Neil
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
… or wherever you get your podcasts!
โ
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 2:23 โ Intro and finding The Way Out story
- 6:59 โ Making people comfortable
- 11:10 โ The story in Devonโs words
- 16:29 โ Mountain town people
- 20:48 โ Lifestyle overlaps
- 24:20 โ Devonโs own accidents
- 30:10 โ Itโs all great until someone gets hurt
- 33:03 โ The bonds of risk
- 35:18 โ Adjustments
- 39:22 โ Growing up on islands
- 43:43 โ How Devon got to Colorado
- 47:34 โ Pros and cons of different types of writing
- 51:22 โ Book writing advice
- 55:42 โ Not just about getting it right
- 1:00:09 โ Book and writer recs
Information Referenced:
- Devon OโNeil
- The Way Out: A True Story of Survival in the Heart of the Rockies by Devon OโNeil
- Silverton Avalanche School death, Devonโs story and one from The Colorado Sun
- 10th Mountain Division Huts
- Salida, Colorado
- Into Thin Air, The Perfect Storm
- Writer recs: Bill Gifford, Ted Conover, Hampton Sides, Mark Jenkins, Abe Streep, Hunter S. Thompson
- Book recs: Into the Wild, Hellโs Angels
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Yvon Chouinard โ The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
- Chris Keyes โ From Outside to RE:PUBLIC
- Nicholas Triolo โ What the Circuitous Path Reveals
- Helen Rebanks โ โThe Farmerโs Wifeโ โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Cassidy Randall โ The Untold Story of Denaliโs First All-Womenโs Ascent
- Scott Hulet: Reading + Writing + Surfing + Fishing + Traveling
- Mark Easter โ Food, Soil, and Our Planetโs Future
- Kevin Grange โ The Secret Lives of Grizzlies
Visit the podcast page for a full, searchable list of episodes
Carli Kierstead โ Wyoming Forests and the Work of Keeping Water Flowing
Carli Kierstead is the Forest Program Director for The Nature Conservancy in Wyoming, where she leads efforts to understand and restore some of the Westโs most criticalโand often overlookedโecosystems. From beetle kill and wildfire to drought, Wyomingโs forests face a range of challenges that ripple far beyond the stateโs borders. These high-country forests are the headwaters of several major river basins, providing water to millions of people across the American West.
In this conversation, Carli and I dig into the past, present, and future of Western forestsโhow management philosophies have evolved over the decades, whatโs threatening their health today, and what can be done to make them more resilient in a changing climate. We talk about her teamโs groundbreaking work using snowtographyโa deceptively simple but powerful way to study how forest structure affects snowpack and water supplyโand how those findings could help guide future restoration across the Colorado River Basin.
Carli also shares her personal journey from growing up in San Diego to finding her calling in Wyomingโs wide-open landscapes, her insights on collaboration and trust-building in conservation, and a few book recommendations that shaped her path. Itโs a hopeful, science-grounded conversation about water, forests, and how collaboration can shape a more resilient future for the West.
Thanks for listening, hope you enjoy!
Both photos by Drew Bennett Photo, courtesy of TNC
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
โฆor wherever you get your podcasts!
EPISODE PARTNER:
This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Colorado chapter of The Nature Conservancy and TNC chapters throughout the Western United States. Guided by science and grounded by decades of collaborative partnerships, The Nature Conservancy has a long-standing legacy of achieving lasting results to create a world where nature and people thrive.
During the last week of every month throughout 2025, Mountain & Prairie will be delving into conversations with a wide range of The Nature Conservancyโs leaders, partners, collaborators, and stakeholders, highlighting the myriad of conservation challenges, opportunities, and solutions here in the American West and beyond. You can access all of the episodes here.
To learn more about The Nature Conservancyโs impactful work in the West and around the world, visit www.nature.org
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 2:34 โ Intro and Wyoming forest health
- 7:16 โ Beetle issues
- 8:30 โ Why forest health?
- 12:35 โ Economic benefit of forests
- 16:28 โ Wyomingโs claim to water
- 17:10 โ Snowtography
- 23:18 โ Lessons from the snow
- 27:33 โ On the ground impact
- 33:53 โ How it scales
- 40:42 โ Relationship building
- 46:08 โ The tendrils of the Colorado River Basin
- 46:46 โ Carliโs environment obsession
- 52:01 โ How to build a relationship
- 55:10 โ Book recs
- 58:38 โ Last thoughts
Information Referenced:
- Carli Kierstead, Forest Program Director at The Nature Conservancy in Wyoming
- Wyoming forests + TNC
- Snowtography short film
- Forests for Freshwater factsheet
- The Big Burn
- Snowtography
- Carliโs book recs: The Solace of Open Spaces, Finding the Mother Tree
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Rob Addington โ A Deep Dive into Western Wildfires and Forest Health
- Kristine Tompkins โ Nothing to Lose
- Matt Cahill โ A Deep Dive into the Sagebrush Sea
- Paul Hendricks โ The Conservation Alliance and the Future of Public Lands
- Chris Keyes โ From Outside to RE:PUBLIC
- Celene Hawkins and Taylor Hawes โ Navigating the Next Era of the Colorado River
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
Bex Frucht โ Story Wrangler! Vibe Steward! One of a Kind!
Bex Frucht is a force of natureโa storyteller and community builder whose work blends performance, land, and small-town life in the American West. Based in Livingston, Montana, sheโs the founder of TMI Live, a storytelling series that celebrates vulnerability, humor, and human connection, and for the past three years, sheโs been the โvibe stewardโ of the Old Salt Festival, where her talent for bringing people together has become legendary. Whether sheโs hosting a show, coaching storytellers, or emceeing a fundraiser, Bex radiates generosity, intelligence, and positivity in a way that elevates every room sheโs in.
Like so many of my favorite people, her career path is as winding as it is fascinating: a Morehead-Cain Scholar at UNC Chapel Hill, she spent her early years in media and entertainment in New York and Los Angeles, then pivoted to environmental work before landing on a ranch in Colorado to learn about land stewardship from the ground up. Those years on the prairie, combined with her creative life in cities and her Southern roots, helped hone her rare ability to connect seemingly opposite worldsโartists and ranchers, movie stars and cowboys, locals and newcomersโthrough the shared power of story.
In this conversation recorded at her home in Livingston, we trace her inspiring journey and talk about the lessons sheโs learned along the way: what it means to find your authentic voice, how storytelling can build bridges across divides, and why embracing your weirdness can be the key to a meaningful life. Itโs a funny, authentic conversation thatโs as instructive as it is entertaining. For anyone whoโs ever wondered how to forge their own path, live creatively, and stay grounded in community, this episode is for you.
Be sure to check out the episode notes below for a full list of all the topics we discussed and links to everything. And give Bex a follow on Instagram to stay in the loop about her upcoming storytelling shows and appearances in Montana and beyond.
A big thanks to Bex for her friendship, encouragement, inspiration, and this conversation. And thank you for listening.
—
Header photo by the great Kyle Joe Turner, inset courtesy of the Old Salt Festival
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
… or wherever you get your podcasts!
โ
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 2:29 – Intro, where Bex grew up and how she got West
- 10:40 – Grade stress
- 14:21 – Being yourself so others can be themselves
- 16:11 – How Bex changed after college
- 24:11 – Lawyer land ethic to MTV
- 27:27 – NYC love
- 28:32 – LA freelancing and leaving MTV
- 32:49 – Live storytelling
- 37:24 – Oversharing is caring
- 42:54 – Starting with the person and Bexโs views on food systems
- 47:31 – Itโs all messy
- 54:19 – Lessons from the ranch
- 1:00:44 – Vibe steward
- 1:03:52 – Bexโs job in Livingston
- 1:10:11 – Creatives and cowboys
- 1:19:30 – Relationship currency
- 1:24:39 – Valuing creatives
- 1:27:57 – Book recs
Information Referenced:
- Bex on Instagram
- Bex on LinkedIn
- Bexโs Seven Talk
- Julie of the Wolves, Bexโs connection to wolves
- Morehead-Cain scholarship
- Outward Bound program
- Glenna Patton, MTV
- The Moth
- Bill Ratner, Bexโs story telling fairy godfather
- Old Salt Co-op
- Chico Basin Ranch
- M&P episode from Old Salt, talking about meat supply chains with an introduction from Bex, in 2023.
- Last Best Comedy club in Bozeman
- Article about TMI Live
- Edโs live in Bozeman event
- Book recs: Women Who Run with the Wolves
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Nick Offerman โ Empathy, Nuance, & Good Hard Work
- George Hodgin Returns โ On Risk-Taking, Leadership, and the Future of Cannabis
- Helen Rebanks โ โThe Farmerโs Wifeโ โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Rick Wittenbraker โ Humility, Generosity, and Building One-of-a-Kind Brands
- Logan Maxwell Hagege Returns โ On Taking Action & Finding Balance
- Joe Schobert โ From NFL Pro Bowler to Western Conservation Advocate
- Scott Hulet: Reading + Writing + Surfing + Fishing + Traveling
- Nicole Qualtieri โ Charting a New Course in the Changing Landscape of Outdoor Media
- Betsy Gaines Quammen Returns โ Myths, Curiosity, and Human Connection (Live at the Old Salt Festival)
Visit the podcast page for a full, searchable list of episodes
Yvon Chouinard โ The Perpetual Pursuit of Simplicity
Yvon Chouinard needs no introduction. The founder of Patagonia, pioneer of clean climbing, co-founder of 1% for the Planet, and lifelong advocate for simplicity and wildness, heโs one of the worldโs most influential environmental leaders. Now in his mid-80s, Yvon continues to live, work, and fish by the same principles that have guided him since his dirtbag climbing days: live simply, take responsibility for your impact, and keep finding meaning through deep, direct engagement with nature.
His newest book, Pheasant Tail Simplicity: Recipes and Techniques for Successful Fly Fishing, distills those philosophies into one of his lifelong passionsโfly fishing. Co-authored with his longtime fishing buddies Craig Mathews and Mauro Mazzo, Pheasant Tail Simplicity begins as a guide to tying and fishing with only pheasant-tail flies, and becomes a case study in creativity, restraint, and how simplifying our pursuits can reconnect us to what really matters. You donโt have to be a hardcore angler to glean important lessons from the bookโits insights can be applied to almost any part of life.
In this conversation, Yvon and I start out talking about fly fishing, of courseโbut we quickly veer into broader terrain: how constraints can become a path to freedom, how business can be a demonstration of ethics, and how pessimism can serve as a productive form of realism. He shares a ton of amazing storiesโlearning to fish with a tenkara master in Italy, teaching Crow Reservation children to fly fish, founding 1% for the Planet, why rebellious personalities make the best entrepreneurs, his love of regenerative agriculture, and why he still believes that actionโno matter how smallโis the cure for depression. Itโs a wide-ranging, funny, and wise discussion with someone whoโs spent a lifetime proving that the process is far more important than the outcome.
During our conversation, youโll hear us reference several of Patagoniaโs pioneersโKris Tompkins, Rick Ridgeway, and Vincent Stanleyโall of whom Iโve interviewed here on Mountain & Prairie. If youโd like to listen to those episodes or check out their books, click the links above.
A huge thank-you to Patagonia, Patagonia Books, Patagonia Fly Fishing, and of course Yvon for the opportunity to have this conversation. Like many of you listeners, Iโve been deeply influenced by Yvonโs work and worldview, so it was a dream come true to sit down with him for a long, relaxed conversation.
Be sure to check out Pheasant Tail Simplicity and the many other excellent titles from Patagonia Books. Thanks so much for listeningโI hope you enjoy.
—
Photos courtesy of Patagonia: Header by Rich Crowder, inset by Stephanie Ridge
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
… or wherever you get your podcasts!
โ
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 2:50 – Intro, the blind fisherman in Labrador
- 5:37 – Why another book about flyfishing?
- 8:26 – The story of a Japanese tenkara rod
- 13:00 – It’s the action that counts
- 16:03 – Democratic fly fishing
- 17:37 – Fishing emergers
- 19:45 – No shortcuts
- 25:12 – Simplifying sports
- 26:30 – Seeking constraints
- 29:06 – Juvenile delinquent energy
- 31:46 – A bugโs life
- 36:05 – Origins of 1% for the Planet
- 40:16 – Yvonโs regenerative ag interest
- 44:15 – Fighting climate change with market forces
- 46:36 – A happy pessimist
- 48:34 – Fly fishing forever
- 53:47 – Action as the anecdote to depression
Information Referenced:
- Pheasant Tail Simplicity: Recipes and Techniques for Successful Fly Fishing by Yvon Chouinard, Craig Mathews, and Mauro Mazzo
- Monte Burke
- Monte Burke on M&P
- Simple Fly Fishing by Yvon, Craig, and Mauro
- Tenkara rod, the Japanese rod Yvon talked about.
- Greased Line Fishing for Salmon
- 180 South, a movie Yvon contributed to with the tagline: โItโs not an adventure until something goes wrong.โ
- Kate Williams on M&P, 1% for the Planet
- Craig Mathewโs fly shop in West Yellowstone
- Dan OโBrienโs Buffalo for the Broken Heart
- The Blue Plate by Mark Easter
- Mark Easter’s M&P podcast
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Paul Hendricks โ The Conservation Alliance and the Future of Public Lands
- Adam Cramer โ Fighting for the Future of Public Lands
- Kris Tompkins โ Nothing to Lose
- Kate Williams โ Leadership Lessons from the CEO of 1% for the Planet
- Rick Ridgeway โ Purpose-Driven Adventurer
- Nick Offerman โ Empathy, Nuance, & Good Hard Work
- James Prosek โ Art, Philosophy, & Our Natural World
- Vincent Stanley โ Lessons Learned from Patagoniaโs First Fifty Years
Visit the podcast page for a full, searchable list of episodes
Chris Keyes โ From Outside to RE:PUBLIC
Chris Keyes is the Executive Director of RE:PUBLIC and the former longtime Editor in Chief of Outside magazine. During his decades-long career in journalism, Chris helped guide Outside through some of its most iconic yearsโpublishing award-winning stories, mentoring top writers, and keeping the magazineโs adventurous spirit alive in an era of massive change across the media landscape. Earlier this year, after leaving Outside, he launched RE:PUBLIC, a new nonprofit newsroom dedicated to one of his lifelong passions: Americaโs public lands.
RE:PUBLIC was created to fill a growing gap in environmental journalism. At a time when newsroom budgets are shrinking and coverage of conservation and land management issues has nearly disappeared, Chris saw an opportunity to build a publication focused entirely on public landsโhow theyโre managed, who uses them, and why they matter. Structured as a nonprofit, RE:PUBLIC will publish deeply reported, narrative-driven stories that reach across political lines and help readers better understand the forces shaping the landscapes we all share.
In this episode, we talk about what inspired Chris to start RE:PUBLIC, why public lands deserve more consistent and credible coverage, and how heโs building a business model that protects editorial independence. We also discuss his years at Outside, the changing nature of journalism, the challenges of freelance writing, and why great storytelling still has the power to cut through the noise and connect people to big ideas.
Don’t forget to sign up for RE:PUBLICโs free newsletter!!
Big thanks to Chris for the fun conversation, and thank you for listening.
—
Photos courtesy of Chris Keyes
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โ
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 2:00 – Intro, two comments and a question
- 6:08 – From Outside to RE:PUBLIC
- 10:57 – Public lands in the mainstream
- 13:12 – Nonprofit model
- 18:41 – Preaching to the choir
- 24:11 – Managing conflict as a people pleaser
- 29:17 – Journalism institutions and its role today
- 33:20 – Where itโs all going
- 39:41 – The editing hierarchy
- 44:27 – How Chris discovered Outside
- 49:46 – Adding in some personal connection
- 51:52 – The plan at Duke
- 57:09 – Book recs
- 1:00:20 – Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- LinkedIn post launching RE:PUBLIC
- RE:PUBLIC and the founderโs note
- Texas Tribune
- ProPublicaโs coverage of Sen. Leeโs public lands sell-off bill.
- Floyd Landis
- Chrisโs independent writers recs: Matthew Yglesias, Bill McKibben. (Producerโs recs: Kylie Mohr and John Stember.)
- Sign up for the RE:PUBLIC newsletter here.
- Texas Monthly
- Hampton Sides
- Nicholas Kristof on the creative process and his NYT columns.
- Book recs: The Snow Leopard and Killing Mister Watson by Peter Matthiessen
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Paul Hendricks โ The Conservation Alliance and the Future of Public Lands
- Adam Cramer โ Fighting for the Future of Public Lands
- Hal Herring Returns โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Kristine Tompkins โ Nothing to Lose
- Kate Williams โ Leadership Lessons from the CEO of 1% for the Planet
- Rick Ridgeway โ Purpose-Driven Adventurer
- Ivan McClellan Returns โ From Behind the Lens to Center of the Arena
Visit the podcast page for a full, searchable list of episodes
Brad Johnson โ Building Trust and Soil Health
Brad Johnson is the Senior Regenerative Agriculture Advisor for The Nature Conservancy, where he helps farmers across Idaho and beyond explore new ways of working the land that build healthier soils, stronger operations, and more resilient communities. Bradโs path into this work is deeply personalโhe grew up on a multi-generational farm in northern Idaho, where as a teenager he saw firsthand how no-till practices could dramatically reduce erosion on the steep, fertile hills of his familyโs farm. That early โaha momentโ set him on a winding path through farming, ranching, research, and even a stint in agricultural sales, before eventually joining TNC in 2019.
In this conversation, Brad and I dig into the practical realities of regenerative agricultureโwhat it looks like on the ground, why itโs both promising and challenging to scale, and how trust and relationships are every bit as important as science and technology. He shares stories from TNCโs demonstration farms, where producers are experimenting with new biological practices that reduce reliance on fungicides and pesticides, and from high school programs where the next generation of Idaho farmers are already putting regenerative methods into practice.
Bradโs perspective is grounded in lived experience and a genuine respect for the farmers he works with. Whether youโre deep in the ag world or simply curious about how food systems can adapt to a changing climate, this episode offers a clear, hopeful look at whatโs possible when conservation and agriculture work hand in hand.
—
Both photos by Neil Crescenti/TNC
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
โฆor wherever you get your podcasts!
EPISODE PARTNER:
This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Colorado chapter of The Nature Conservancy and TNC chapters throughout the Western United States. Guided by science and grounded by decades of collaborative partnerships, The Nature Conservancy has a long-standing legacy of achieving lasting results to create a world where nature and people thrive.
During the last week of every month throughout 2025, Mountain & Prairie will be delving into conversations with a wide range of The Nature Conservancyโs leaders, partners, collaborators, and stakeholders, highlighting the myriad of conservation challenges, opportunities, and solutions here in the American West and beyond. You can access all of the episodes here.
To learn more about The Nature Conservancyโs impactful work in the West and around the world, visit www.nature.org
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 2:47 – Intro, 100 years in Idaho
- 4:52 – Bluegrass sod and Idahoโs land
- 6:53 – No-till drill
- 9:43 – Buying into no-till
- 10:54 – From no-till to regenerative
- 11:40 – Bradโs farmer life pre-TNC
- 14:45 – The TNC introduction
- 18:46 – Roadblocks to switching to regenerative
- 20:52 – Examples of regenerative farms
- 22:54 – Spray to no-spray
- 28:05 – Another regeneration demonstration farm
- 31:04 – Success stories
- 33:27 – Working with a high school
- 36:34 – Scalability
- 39:32 – Building trust
- 41:09 – Looking forward and first steps
- 43:57 – Podcast recs
- 45:43 – Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Brad Johnson
- Regenerative agriculture in Idaho, including the demonstration farms Brad talks about.
- Calibrated Agronomy, Jaredโs YouTube channel
- The Spud Drive-In Theatre update from Teton Valley News
- Mark Easter on M&P
- The Regenerative Agriculture Podcast
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Live from SXSW โ Farmer-Founded Brands Will Save American Fashion
- Helen Rebanks โ โThe Farmerโs Wifeโ โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Matt Cahill โ A Deep Dive into the Sagebrush Sea
- Matt Moorhead & Galen Guerrero-Murphy โ Grasslands Conservation on the Southern High Plains
- Rob Addington โ A Deep Dive into Western Wildfires and Forest Health
- Kristine Tompkins โ Nothing to Lose
- Sean Claffey โ A Resilient Vision for Sagebrush Country
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
Paul Hendricks โ The Conservation Alliance and the Future of Public Lands
Paul Hendricks is the Executive Director of The Conservation Alliance, a coalition of more than 270 businesses working together to protect wild places across North America. Founded nearly four decades ago by Patagonia, REI, The North Face, and Kelty, The Conservation Alliance has grown into one of the most important forces in conservationโpooling dollars, influence, and a collective business voice to support grassroots campaigns that keep public lands and waters healthy for generations to come. At a time when those places are under constant pressure, The Conservation Alliance is showing that businesses donโt have to sit on the sidelinesโthey can be a powerful part of the solution.
Paulโs own path to this role winds through some of the most interesting corners of the conservation and environmental worlds. After earning a few advanced degrees, he started at Global Greengrants Fund, working with grassroots activists around the globe. He then joined Patagoniaโs legendary environmental team, where he learned firsthand how a company can weave values into every decision. From there, he helped build sustainability programs at Rivian, tackling the climate footprint of a car company from the inside. And woven through all of that is a through-line of humility, service, and adventure.ย
In this conversation, Paul and I talk about the roots of his love for the outdoors, the mentors and lessons that shaped his career, and what itโs like to step into the hot seat as a first-time executive director. We dig into The Conservation Allianceโs mission and why business advocacy matters, the current threats facing public lands, and how Paul stays grounded in turbulent times. We also talk about family, leadership, failure, and why hope is not just possible but necessary. Itโs a candid, thoughtful conversation with someone whoโs not only shaping the future of conservation, but doing it with humility, persistence, and just enough humor to keep it human.
Iโve had the privilege of knowing Paul for almost 15 yearsโwe met when he first moved to Colorado, became running and climbing partners, and have logged more hours together in the mountains and had more meaningful conversations than I can count. Watching him grow into this role has been inspiring, both for the positions heโs held and for the way heโs carried himself along the way.
—
Photos courtesy of Paul Hendricks
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
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Spotify
… or wherever you get your podcasts!
โ
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 2:37 โ Intro, Edโs one running partner
- 4:03 โ How the outdoors has shaped Paulโs career
- 6:48 โ Plan post-college
- 12:41 โ Sunk-cost fallacy
- 14:22 โ Global Greengrants Fund
- 17:05 โ Learning from Rick Ridgeway
- 20:23 โ Lessons from Patagonia
- 24:25 โ Ready for a new challenge
- 30:00 โ Laid off at Rivian
- 36:02 โ Being in charge
- 38:01 โ The Conservation Alliance history
- 43:07 โ TCA within public lands threats
- 48:58 โ Whatโs missing from the public lands story?
- 51:49 โ Paulโs role as a leader
- 56:14 โ Role models
- 59:04 โ Getting outdoors now
- 1:01:10 โ Book recs
- 1:03:09 โ 1% for the Planet collab
- 1:05:14 โ Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Paul Hendricks
- The Conservation Alliance
- Alpinist magazine
- Sierra Trading Post magazine, originally with hand-drawn images for the items for sale.
- Backpacker magazine (The Outside version)
- Various books by Yvon Chouinardย
- Global Greengrants Fund
- Rick Ridgeway on M&P
- Nick Saban (college football) on process over product
- Stoicism
- Vincent Stanley on M&P
- Rivianโs climate commitments
- Think Again
- Adam Cramer on M&P
- Protecting Americaโs Outdoors
- Roadless Rule changes
- Colorado Collegeโs public lands sentiment poll, โState of the Rockiesโ
- Jocko Willinkโs podcast, former Navy SEAL
- Extreme Ownership
- Book recs: Live Lived Wild, Leaders Eat Last, American Wolf
- 1% for the Planet M&P episode
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Kate Williams โ Leadership Lessons from the CEO of 1% for the Planet
- Adam Cramer โ Fighting for the Future of Public Lands
- Hal Herring Returns โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Kristine Tompkins โ Nothing to Lose
- Sonnie Trotter โ On Flow, Family, and the Long Game
- Vincent Stanley โ Lessons Learned from Patagoniaโs First Fifty Years
- Rick Ridgeway โ Purpose-Driven Adventurer
Visit the podcast page for a full, searchable list of episodes
Kate Williams โ Leadership Lessons from the CEO of 1% for the Planet
Kate Williams is the CEO of 1% for the Planet, the global nonprofit that has turned a simple idea into a worldwide force for good: businesses committing 1% of their annual revenue to environmental causes. If youโve ever spotted that little 1% for the Planet logo on a favorite brand, youโve seen Kateโs work in actionโ under her leadership, the organization has grown to more than 4,400 members across more than 110 countries, certifying nearly a billion dollars in giving to date.
Kateโs path to this work is anything but conventional, though looking back, it all makes perfect sense. A NOLS course at age 18 opened up new horizons for Kate and gave her a crash course in leadership, responsibility, and the joy of working hard alongside passionate people with a shared purpose. That experience led her into outdoor education, then to leading the Northern Forest Canoe Trail, and eventually to 1% for the Planet. Along the way, sheโs stayed grounded in service, humility, and a knack for seeing challenges as opportunities to grow.
In this conversation, Kate and I dig into her personal journey and the philosophy that drives her leadership. We talk about the growth of 1% for the Planet, the credibility it brings to a crowded sustainability space, and why she believes real leadership is built in โsmall, consistent, humble moments.โ We also get into her outdoor roots, her parentsโ influence, the importance of curiosity, and her belief that no matter where you are in life, โthe journey continues.โ Itโs a wide-ranging, generous conversation with someone whoโs helping to reshape how businesses and individuals show up for the planet. Enjoy!
—
Photos courtesy of Kate Williams
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
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… or wherever you get your podcasts!
โ
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 2:00 – Intro, sharing NOLS love
- 5:11 – How NOLS shaped Kate as a leader
- 9:49 – Rescue in the wilderness
- 14:28 – Back to real life
- 19:01 – Post-college plan
- 21:06 – The black abyss
- 23:03 – Why business school?
- 27:04 – Northern Forest Canoe Trail
- 32:39 – Path to 1% for the Planet
- 37:21 – Person of action
- 39:47 – 1%โs impact
- 42:19 – Acceleration
- 45:46 – Marketing impacts
- 48:17 – Nonprofits and businesses
- 51:22 – 1% + The Conservation Alliance
- 54:21 – Leaders Kate admires
- 59:01 – Book recs
- 1:03:24 – Parting words
Information Referenced:
- Kate Williams
- 1% for the Planet
- NOLS
- High Country News
- Northern Forest Canoe Trail
- Trust for Public Land
- The Conservation Alliance
- Brands for Public Lands
- Book recs: Good to Great, Scaling Up, Bird by Bird, The Lighteaters
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Kristine Tompkins โ Nothing to Lose
- Brady Robinson Returns โ Grassroots Conservation on a Global Scale
- Elliot Ross: Where Landscape, Justice, and Storytelling Meet
- Sandy Colhoun โ Building Leaders Through Outdoor Education
- Sonnie Trotter โ On Flow, Family, and the Long Game
- Vincent Stanley โ Lessons Learned from Patagoniaโs First Fifty Years
- Rick Ridgeway โ Purpose-Driven Adventurer
Visit the podcast page for a full, searchable list of episodes
Nicholas Triolo โ What the Circuitous Path Reveals
Nicholas Triolo is a writer, endurance athlete, and educator whose life and work sit at the crossroads of ecology, activism, and storytelling. For years heโs been exploring what happens when we stop charging toward the summit and start paying attention to the circuitous paths that wind around it. His new book, The Way Around: A Field Guide to Going Nowhere, is the culmination of that exploration โ a lyrical, wide-ranging meditation on movement, place, and the art of staying present.
In the book, Nick traces a series of pilgrimages: circling a sacred mountain in Tibet, exploring a culturally significant northern California hiking tradition, and walking the rim of one of Montanaโs most infamous superfund sites. Each journey reveals something deeper โ about endurance and restraint, about intimacy with landscapes and with ourselves, and about the courage to face environmental and cultural shadows without turning away. The book weaves together memoir, travel writing, and ecological inquiry, and in doing so, it asks us to reconsider how we measure meaning: not by miles logged or summits bagged, but by the depth of our attention and the generosity of our presence.
In this conversation, Nick and I dig into the ideas behind the book โ the practice of circumambulation, the pitfalls of โsummit fever,โ and the possibility of finding beauty even in places scarred by extraction. We also talk about the creative process: how to find your authentic voice in a world full of (good and bad) influences, how to write with both intimacy and respect, and how stories can become tools for resilience and re-enchantment.
If youโve ever sensed that the most interesting part of a long run, a wilderness trip, or a creative endeavor is what happens beneath the surface, this is a conversation for you. Nick has a gift for showing us how going โnowhereโ can sometimes bring us closer to where we most need to be.
Check out the episode notes for links to everything. Hope you enjoy!
—
Header photo courtesy of UTMB Thailand, headshot by Rio Chantel.
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
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Spotify
… or wherever you get your podcasts!
โ
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 2:22 – Intro, when does curiosity become a book?
- 10:14 – Summits versus processes
- 12:31 – Western States
- 18:34 – Structure of Nickโs book
- 24:55 – In each round
- 28:32 – Butte, America
- 32:47 – Instruction manual for thinking clearly
- 35:09 – Nick reads from Widening Circles
- 38:01 – Putting so much personal out there
- 45:26 – Finding Nickโs voice (and Edโs)
- 48:59 – Trusting curiosity
- 53:44 – Catering to the audience
- 56:04 – Finding the niche that needs you
- 59:44 – The Jasmine Dialogues
- 1:05:06 – Meeting your heroes
- 1:11:46 – Just do you
- 1:14:19 – Book recs
- 1:19:47 – Last thoughts
Information Referenced:
- Nick Triolo
- Nickโs book, The Way Around
- Western States Endurance Run
- Nick helped Death Cab For Cutieโs Ben Gibbard prep for Western States.
- Berkeley Pit in Butte, Montana
- Tribe, Freedom, Sebastian Junger books
- Holy the Firm by Annie Dillard
- Some circumambulation history, starting with the Mount Tamalpais tradition
- Mountains and Rivers Without End by Gary Snyder
- The Richest Hill, podcast about Butteโs history
- Pema Chรถdrรถn, Buddhist monk
- Rattlesnake Wilderness
- Widening Circles
- โโโThe canonโ: Rob McFarland, Natalie Diaz
- Nickโs profile on Gregory Gourdet for Outside RUN
- David James Duncan
- Cรดa River rewilding project
- Nickโs piece in Emergence magazine on the Cรดa River
- Freeflow Institute
- The Jasmine Dialogues, Nickโs Substack
- Joe Grant on M&P
- The Mandorla Project, an offshoot of Nickโs Substack with a post specifically about meeting your heroes.
- Nick Offerman on M&P
- Orion magazine
- Book recs (otherwise known as burning house books): Paul Kingsnorthโs Against The Machine, Natalie Diazโs Postcolonial Love Poem, Holy the Firm, Layli Long Soldier, Marilynne Robinson’s Gilead, In The Eye of the Wild by Nastassja Martin, Power by Linda Hogan and a variety of Robert MacFarlane books including Is A River Alive, Underland and The Old Ways
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Brendan Leonard Returns โ On Writing, Teaching, and Staying Weird
- David James Duncan โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Helen Rebanks โ โThe Farmerโs Wifeโ โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Chris Dombrowski, Part 2 โ โThe River You Touchโ
- Peter Stark โ Tales of Adventure, Exploration, & Epic Battles
- James Prosek โ Art, Philosophy, & Our Natural World
- John Vaillant โ A Riveting Exploration of Fire
- Pete McBride Returns โ Exploring & Documenting His Backyard River
- Mark Easter โ Food, Soil, and Our Planetโs Future
Visit the podcast page for a full, searchable list of episodes
Kelly Beevers โ Connection, Collaboration, Conservation
Kelly Beevers is the Grazing Lands Partner Strategy Lead with The Nature Conservancy, where she helps guide collaborative efforts to support ranchers, strengthen communities, and conserve some of the most threatened ecosystems in North America. Based in Montana, Kelly has built her career at the intersection of real estate, land stewardship, and community-driven conservationโfirst working in commercial real estate, then private equity and consulting, before finding her home at TNC. Today, she leads TNCโs work that champions rancher-led, peer-to-peer learning and innovation by strengthening, connecting, and activating all varieties of rancher networks.
In this conversation, Kelly and I talk about her unlikely journey from Texas A&M finance classrooms to Montana ranch kitchen tables, and how those experiences shaped her approach to building authentic partnerships. We dig into the power of peer-to-peer rancher networks, why local knowledge and community leadership are essential for durable conservation, and how initiatives like Women in Ranching are reshaping the future of stewardship. Along the way, Kelly shares lessons from her career pivots, stories of on-the-ground innovation, and the hope she draws from the people she works with every day. She also offers a ton of excellent book recommendations, so be sure the check out the episode notes for links to everything.
Kelly brings a rare mix of technical expertise, strategic vision, and deep human connection to her work, and Iโve had the privilege of calling her a friend for many years. Itโs been a joy to watch her career evolve, and I know listeners will take away both inspiration and practical insight from this conversation. Enjoy!
Header photo by Emmie Sperandeo, photo with pups by Thewmatt Photography
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
โฆor wherever you get your podcasts!
EPISODE PARTNER:
This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Colorado chapter of The Nature Conservancy and TNC chapters throughout the Western United States. Guided by science and grounded by decades of collaborative partnerships, The Nature Conservancy has a long-standing legacy of achieving lasting results to create a world where nature and people thrive.
During the last week of every month throughout 2025, Mountain & Prairie will be delving into conversations with a wide range of The Nature Conservancyโs leaders, partners, collaborators, and stakeholders, highlighting the myriad of conservation challenges, opportunities, and solutions here in the American West and beyond. You can access all of the episodes here.
To learn more about The Nature Conservancyโs impactful work in the West and around the world, visit www.nature.org
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 2:50 – Intro, Kellyโs early real estate history
- 6:39 – Next steps after real estate
- 9:23 – What drew Kelly to the West
- 14:30 – Specializing in listening
- 19:49 – From a company of one to a national nonprofit
- 24:41 – Kellyโs role at TNC
- 28:33 – Figuring out focus
- 36:23 – โAll it tookโ
- 44:11 – How Kellyโs work fits into the broader TNC picture
- 54:35 – Women in Ranching
- 1:00:11 – Earning hope
- 1:05:58 – Book recs
- 1:10:42 – Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Kelly Beevers
- TNC Regenerative Grazing Lands, primarily focused on the Great Plains and the Western United States.
- North Americaโs grazing lands โ including grasslands, shrublands and prairies โ have been disappearing at an alarming rate. What remains is at risk from land conversion, extreme weather events and habitat loss, among other threats. The Nature Conservancy is working with producers, collaboratives, companies and government agencies to implement large-scale solutions to conserve these iconic lands and enhance the lives of the people who depend on them.
- TNCโs 2030 Goal: Increase the pace and impact of grazing land conservation. TNC is working to restore, improve and protect the ecological and economic condition of 240 million acres of grazing lands, which can influence how most of the 750 million acres of U.S. grazing lands are managed.
- The 240 million acres goal incorporates goals of other teams and work TNC is doing as well. Work is made up of principal (TNC in charge โ lands, easements, projects delivering on public lands, etc.), direct (TNC in leading or having direct impact on direction of collaborative project) and indirect (TNC influencing or having a hand, but not in charge).
- TNC helps to shape policy to support regenerative grazing within the Farm Bill and public land management, creates supply chain incentives that support implementing regenerative practices and champions peer-to-peer networks, like Ranchers Leading Change.
- M&P Matt Cahill and the sagebrush sea episode
- M&P Matt Moorhead and Galen Guerrero-Murphy episode
- M&P Amber Smith episode
- Kris Tompkins on M&P
- Edโs Good News newsletter for when you need some extra hope.
- Whatโs giving Kelly hope: rancher-led collaboratives, Department of Defense interest in agriculture, and the current administration forcing conversations within TNC to tell a more comprehensive story (ecology + economy + community).
- Women in Ranching
- Working Lands Collaborative in Wyoming
- Rancher-led collaboratives like the Ranchers Stewardship Alliance
- A revolving loan fund that raised $80,000 to loan to businesses in Winnett, Montana, population 500.
- Book recs: The Heart of Tracking by Richard Vacha, Never Whistle At Night: An Indigenous Dark Fiction Anthology, The Serviceberry, Becoming Animal by David Abram
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Matt Cahill โ A Deep Dive into the Sagebrush Sea
- Matt Moorhead & Galen Guerrero-Murphy โ Grasslands Conservation on the Southern High Plains
- Rob Addington โ A Deep Dive into Western Wildfires and Forest Health
- Kristine Tompkins โ Nothing to Lose
- Live from SXSW โ Farmer-Founded Brands Will Save American Fashion
- Sean Claffey โ A Resilient Vision for Sagebrush Country
- Helen Rebanks โ โThe Farmerโs Wifeโ โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
Cole Mannix & Andrew Anderson โ The Hard Work of Building a Better Food System
This episode was recorded live on stage at the 2025 Old Salt Festival in Helmville, Montana, where I had the honor of sitting down with two of the people at the center of this ambitious experiment in food, land, and community: Cole Mannix who is the President and co-founder of the Old Salt Co-op and Andrew Anderson who is the manager of the J Bar L Ranch.
If youโve been following Old Salt, you know itโs much more than a beef company. Itโs a bold attempt to rethink how ranching families, local communities, restaurants, and consumers can work together to create a food system thatโs resilient, regenerative, and deeply rooted in place. What strikes me most about Cole, Andrew, and the Old Salt team is just how hard they are working to make this vision a reality. Theyโre juggling ranching, processing, restaurants, and festivalsโbusinesses that are notoriously difficult on their ownโand somehow doing it all with an open spirit of generosity, collaboration, and humility.
In this conversation, we dig into the early days of Old Salt, the failures and lessons that shaped it, and the risks of scaling up in an industry designed to squeeze out small producers. We talk about why they chose to take the harder road of building restaurants and hosting a one-of-a-kind festival, how they measure success beyond the spreadsheet, and why they believe community is as important a product as the beef itself.
Even if you donโt work in food or ranching, the lessons here resonate for anyone trying to build a purpose-driven business. We cover everything from balancing mission and margins, to leading with vulnerability, to learning how to grow without losing sight of your values.
Cole and Andrew are quick to admit they donโt have it all figured out, but their candor, persistence, and vision make this a conversation I know youโll find as inspiring as I did. Enjoy!
—
Header photo by Ed, headshots courtesy of Old Salt
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
… or wherever you get your podcasts!
โ
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 0:00 – Intro, spirit of generosity
- 3:38 – Starting at the beginning of Old Salt with Cole
- 6:51 – Getting to know Andrew with J Bar L
- 10:18 – Ranching families coming together
- 14:51 – Lessons learned
- 19:29 – Getting to the festival, controversies
- 24:37 – Measuring success
- 29:20 – Realities of meat processing
- 34:47 – Restaurant business
- 38:49 – What we need to know (empower producers!)
- 42:11 – Start of audience Q&A, snack sticks
- 44:14 – Q: How did you forge this path?
- 47:26 – Q: If not the festival, what would the community touch points be?
- 49:42 – Q: Succession planning
- 54:41 – Wrapping up and thank yous
Information Referenced:
- Old Salt Co-op
- Cole Mannix
- Mannix Family Beef
- Andrew Anderson
- J Bar L Ranch
- Old Salt Festival
- The Good Food Store in Missoula, Montana was an early Old Salt seller. Hereโs where else you can get their products.
- Meat processing complications during covid-19, High Country News article
- Yellowstone Grassfed Beef
- Andrew Mace, with roots in the Seeley-Swan and Helena, Montana areas, is the chef behind Old Salt, who also has restaurants that were nominated in Portlandโs top 10.
- The Union, an Old Salt restaurant, was nominated for a James Beard award in 2025 for best new restaurant.
- The Blackfoot Challenge
- Hyperlocal coverage of the Old Salt Festival from the Seeley Swan Pathfinder
- Helmvilleโs Copper Queen Bar, a local institution.
- Old Salt Outpost in Helena, Montana, the original Old Salt Co-op restaurant with burgers and beef tallow fries.
- Groundswell regenerative agriculture festival in the U.K.
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Nick Offerman โ Empathy, Nuance, & Good Hard Work
- David James Duncan โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Kristine Tompkins โ Nothing to Lose
- Jesse Smith โ A Regenerative Approach to Land and Life
- Helen Rebanks โ โThe Farmerโs Wifeโ โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Anna Borgman โ Obsession, Curiosity, and Purpose-Driven Work
Visit the podcast page for a full, searchable list of episodes
Brady Robinson Returns โ Grassroots Conservation on a Global Scale
Brady Robinson is a lifelong climber, conservationist, and educator who currently serves as Director of Philanthropy for the Freyja Foundation. His career has spanned outdoor education, nonprofit leadership, and global conservation philanthropy, with past roles including Executive Director of both the Access Fund and the Conservation Alliance. These days, his work focuses on supporting high-impact land and water conservation efforts across South America, with a particular emphasis on Chilean Patagonia.
Brady and I go way backโhe was my NOLS instructor in the fall of 1999, on a course that involved big mountains, a few navigational hiccups, and some life-long leadership lessons. That semester planted the seeds for much of what Iโve done professionally and personallyโincluding starting this podcastโand Bradyโs been a friend and mentor for going on 26 years. He was also one of the very first guests on this podcast in 2016, back when I had only one microphone and really didnโt know how to work it.
When Brady and I last spoke on the podcast, he was leading the Access Fund, and a lot has happened since then. In this conversation, we catch up on his career and dig into everything heโs working on now. We start out discussing our NOLS experience, Bradyโs leadership in forming the Outdoor Alliance (alongside recent podcast guest Adam Cramer), his work on passing major climbing legislation, and the lessons heโs learned about collaboration, trust, and long-game thinking. We spend the second half of the conversation digging into his current work in Patagoniaโs Cochamรณ Valleyโa spectacular and at-risk landscape in southern Chile that Brady and his colleagues are working to protect through an ambitious multi-partner campaign. Itโs a story of nimble, grassroots conservation work, smart philanthropy, and whatโs possible when people align around a shared purpose.
If youโve enjoyed my conversations with Kris Tompkins or Adam Cramer, then I know youโll enjoy this one as well. Big thanks to Brady for his decades of support and mentorshipโand another big thanks to you for listening. Enjoy!
—
Header photo by Jimmy Chin, headshot by Susannah Allen
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
… or wherever you get your podcasts!
โ
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 2:27 – Intro and how Ed and Brady met in 1999
- 9:06 – Access Fund
- 14:59 – Building a top-notch board
- 18:12 – Alignment
- 23:42 – Leaders Brady admires
- 30:07 – Getting to Patagonia
- 35:33 – Working with Kris Tompkins
- 40:57 – Main Freyja Foundation goals
- 43:48 – The Cochamรณ Valley
- 49:55 – Real estate rough
- 56:52 – The cool kidsโ table
- 1:00:41 – All about the one-on-one
- 1:02:52 – Book recs
Information Referenced:
- Brady Robinson
- Freyja Foundation
- Bradyโs first M&P episode
- NOLS rock climbing
- Outward Bound
- Access Fund
- The Explore Act and the Park Act were advocated for by the Access Fund. The Park Act officially designated the use of fixed anchors in wilderness.
- Adam Cramer M&P episode
- Outdoor Alliance
- Surfriders
- American Hiking Society
- American Alpine Club
- Outdoor Alliance timeline
- Stripping the public lands sale out of the โBig Beautiful Billโ coverage from Montanaโs Flathead Beacon.
- Armando Menocal
- Charles Wilkinson
- Good to Greatย and Good to Great and the Social Sectors
- M&P Kris Tomkins episode
- Rewilding Argentina and Rewilding Chile
- Patagonia Park Argentina
- The Cochamรณ Valley
- Sapiens illustrated series
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Kristine Tompkins โ Nothing to Lose
- Sonnie Trotter โ On Flow, Family, and the Long Game
- Adam Cramer โ Fighting for the Future of Public Lands
- Cassidy Randall โ The Untold Story of Denaliโs First All-Womenโs Ascent
- George Hodgin Returns โ On Risk-Taking, Leadership, and the Future of Cannabis
- Scott Hulet: Reading + Writing + Surfing + Fishing + Traveling
Visit the podcast page for a full, searchable list of episodes
Colorado River Day 2025 โ Essential Books and Conversations
In honor of Colorado River Day 2025, I pulled together a stack of books and past Mountain & Prairie podcast episodes that dig into the Colorado River Basin. Some zoom in on the river itself; others take a wider look at the environmental, agricultural, historical, and cultural forces shaping the basin as a whole.
The whole point of Mountain & Prairie is to make these complex Western issues accessible, understandable, andโdare I sayโfun. So think of this as a mini-library for better grasping the Colorado Riverโs outsized influence on everything west of the 100th meridian.
BOOKS
Desert Solitaire by Edward Abbey
The Secret Knowledge of Water by Craig Childs
Losing Eden by Sara Dant
The Emerald Mile by Kevin Fedarko
A Walk in the Park by Kevin Fedarko
Downriver by Heather Hansman
Encounters with the Archdruid by John McPhee
The Grand Canyon: Between River and Rim by Pete McBride
The Colorado River: Chasing Water by Pete McBride
Where the Water Goes by David Owen
Life After Dead Pool by Zac Podmore
Cadillac Desert by Mark Reisner
Brave the Wild River by Melissa L. Sevigny
This America of Ours by Nate Schweber
Beyond the Hundredth Meridian by Wallace Stegner
These are just a few of the books that either I have read or come highly recommended by podcast guests. If I missed any of your favorites, send me a message and I’ll add them in!
PODCASTS
Header photo by Ed.
Celene Hawkins and Taylor Hawes โ Navigating the Next Era of the Colorado River
Celene Hawkins is the new Colorado River Program Director for The Nature Conservancy, stepping into the role after years of impactful work in tribal water policy and place-based conservation across the basin. Sheโs taking the baton from Taylor Hawes, who led the program for nearly 17 years and is now serving as the Colorado River Programโs Special Advisor. Itโs a leadership transition at a critical moment for the Colorado River, and in this episode, I was lucky to sit down with both of them in person to talk through the handoffโwhatโs changing, whatโs staying the same, and what the future of the river might look like.
This is both Celene and Taylorโs second time on the podcast, and we cover a lot of ground. We talk about the ongoing negotiations over new operating guidelines for the riverโwhatโs on the table, why the stakes are so high, and what happens if the basin states canโt come to an agreement. We dig into tribal involvementโhow things are (slowly) changing after decades of exclusion, and why stronger tribal participation is essential to any long-term solutions. We also explore how conservation groups are bringing new ideas, resources, and partnerships to the table, from modeling future scenarios to piloting creative water-sharing and resilience strategies across the West.
And beyond the policy, we talk about what it actually takes to lead in a time of uncertaintyโhow to stay grounded, keep teams motivated, and maintain momentum when the challenges feel overwhelming. As always, Taylor and Celene bring a clear-eyed sense of purpose and a refreshing mix of realism and optimism to the conversation.
Weโre releasing this episode just ahead of Colorado River Day, which falls on July 25th. So if you care about the West, public lands, rivers, or just want to better understand one of the most important water and conservation challenges in North America, this is a great place to start.
Thanks for listening, I hope you enjoy!
Photos courtesy of TNC, header photo ยฉ Eloise Kendy
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
โฆor wherever you get your podcasts!
EPISODE PARTNER:
This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Colorado chapter of The Nature Conservancy and TNC chapters throughout the Western United States. Guided by science and grounded by decades of collaborative partnerships, The Nature Conservancy has a long-standing legacy of achieving lasting results to create a world where nature and people thrive.
During the last week of every month throughout 2025, Mountain & Prairie will be delving into conversations with a wide range of The Nature Conservancyโs leaders, partners, collaborators, and stakeholders, highlighting the myriad of conservation challenges, opportunities, and solutions here in the American West and beyond. You can access all of the episodes here.
To learn more about The Nature Conservancyโs impactful work in the West and around the world, visit www.nature.org
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 3:02 – Intro, Taylorโs career shift
- 7:27 – Celeneโs journey into Taylorโs old role
- 9:07 – What Taylorโs proud of
- 13:16 – Celeneโs pitch for the job
- 15:21 – Exciting initiatives
- 17:18 – Overview of the Colorado River Basin negotiations
- 22:42 – Sticking points
- 23:54 – Finding the Indigenous voice
- 28:38 – Alternatives
- 31:37 – Work outside of negotiations
- 37:07 – Federal funding freeze impacts
- 39:04 – Effects of uncertainty
- 40:57 – Not getting bogged down
- 44:49 – What Celeneโs learned from Taylor
- 46:28 – And how Taylor thinks Celene is well-positioned
- 47:22 – Book recs
- 51:37 – Wrapping up
Information Referenced:
- Taylorโs first M&P episode
- Celeneโs first M&P episode
- TNCโs Colorado River Program
- Announcement of Celeneโs new role as Director
- Jicarilla Apache Nation and Tribal water within the Colorado River Basin
- Maybell Diversion Project
- Pete McBrideโs The Colorado River
- Colorado River Basin coverage: Inside Climate News, The Colorado Sunย
- Endurance, By Alfred Lansing, about Ernest Shackleton
- Book recs: A Wrinkle In Time, Refuge, My Side of the Mountain, Hatchet, The Ministry for the Future, Braiding Sweetgrass
- Terry Tempest Williams NYT op-ed on public lands
- David Gessner M&P episode
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Pete McBride Returns โ Exploring & Documenting His Backyard River
- Elliot Ross: Where Landscape, Justice, and Storytelling Meet
- Adam Cramer โ Fighting for the Future of Public Lands
- Lorelei Cloud โ Solving Modern-Day Challenges with Ancient Tribal Wisdom
- Frances Ashforth โ Art, Water, and Wide-Open Spaces
- Rob Addington โ A Deep Dive into Western Wildfires and Forest Health
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
Helen Rebanks – โThe Farmerโs Wifeโ – Live at the Old Salt Festival
This conversation with Helen Rebanks was recorded live and on stage at the 2025 Old Salt Festival, held on the Mannix Family Ranch in Helmville, Montana. If you were there, you know how special the moment was. If you werenโtโwell, Iโm glad youโre here now. Even though we were on a stage, in front of a crowd, the conversation had the quiet, reflective feel of two friends talking over a kitchen tableโfitting, given how much of Helenโs story centers around that most sacred of domestic spaces.
Helen is the author of The Farmerโs Wife: My Life in Days, a beautiful and deeply grounded book about food, family, work, and the often invisible labor that holds it all together. In this wide-ranging conversation, we talk about the joys and struggles of farm life, raising kids, writing honestly without self-pity, and why the kitchen table might just be the most important place in the world. Helen shares stories from her own life and reads a few powerful passages from the bookโincluding one that could double as the Old Salt manifesto.
A huge thank you to Cole Mannix, the Mannix family, and the Old Salt crew for making this eventโand this conversationโpossible. Itโs not every day that a bestselling British author makes the trek to a working ranch in western Montana, but Helen did just that, along with her husband James and two of their four children, Molly and Tom. Iโm so happy they made the journey, and I came away deeply grateful for the time we shared and the conversations we had.
Whether youโre a rancher, parent, reader, cook, or just someone trying to live a life of purpose and connection, Helenโs story has something for you. So give it a listenโand if you havenโt already, pick up a copy of The Farmerโs Wife. Youโll be glad you did.
Check out the episode notes for links to everything and thanks so much for listening.
—
Header photo by Imogen Whitely
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
… or wherever you get your podcasts!
โ
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 2:00 – Introducing Helen
- 4:04 – Helen reads from The Farmerโs Wife
- 6:49 – Structuring the book
- 9:46 – Real work
- 12:26 – Helen reads again, connecting to Old Salt
- 17:00 – Shiny individuals and self-autonomy
- 18:55 – Empathy and compassion
- 25:23 – Parenting advice from Helen
- 27:35 – Helenโs take on Montana
- 31:03 – Staying positive within the chaos
- 33:14 – Mums can change the world
- 36:23 – Beginning of audience Q&A
- 37:24 – Q: Did Helen ever regret her choices?
- 40:26 – Q: How do we get young people into this lifestyle?
- 44:10 – Helen and Wendell Berry
- 45:00 – Book recs (just read memoirs!)
- 46:39 – What would Helen tell her young self?
- 48:32 – Helenโs favorite recipes from the book
- 50:54 – Parting words
Information Referenced:
- The Farmerโs Wife: My Life in Days
- Old Salt Festival
- James Rebanks
- Succession planning for ranches
- No one can multitask.
- Wendell Berryโs Port William series.
- This One Wild and Precious Lifeย
- Mary Oliver
- Producerโs memoir rec: Animal, Vegetable, Miracle.
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Nick Offerman โ Empathy, Nuance, & Good Hard Work
- Kristine Tompkins โ Nothing to Lose
- Curt Meine โ Aldo Leopoldโs Life, Work, and Enduring Legacy
- Jesse Smith โ A Regenerative Approach to Land and Life
- Hal Herring Returns โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Janie & Louise Roberson โ Chatting It Up With Their Old Man
- Kami Bakken โ How to Build a Life and Career in the Westโs Wide-Open Spaces
Visit the podcast page for a full, searchable list of episodes
Brendan Leonard Returns โ On Writing, Teaching, and Staying Weird
Brendan Leonard is back for his third appearance on the podcastโthis time recorded in person at his house in Missoula. Brendanโs the creative mind behind Semi-Rad, and over the years, heโs become a good friend and one of my most trusted advisors when it comes to creativity and building a life around the things you care about. Heโs a writer, illustrator, filmmaker, ultrarunner, teacher, and all-around creative machineโsomeone whoโs carved out a career by doing things his own way, with a healthy dose of humor and generosity.
This episode is pretty much two friends sitting at a kitchen table having a laid-back chat about our long list of shared interests. We talk about everything from teaching writing and designing online courses, to the pros and cons of Substack, to how to market your work without feeling like a sellout. We dig into the practical side of creativityโhow to make things, share them, and make a livingโwithout losing the joy and weirdness that made you want to create in the first place.
We also get into self-publishing vs. traditional publishing, why Brendan makes funny books like 15-Second Recipes, and why he believes that generosity, self-deprecation, and consistency matter more than flash or perfection. Thereโs a lot here for anyone trying to make meaningful things in the margins of a busy lifeโฆ or build a creative life from the ground up.
If youโre new to Brendanโs work, be sure to check out his website, newsletter, and his earlier podcast episodes. Iโd also specifically encourage you to check out his most recent book Ultra-Something, his recent film The Seven Summits of My Neighborhood, and the podcast he co-hosts, which is called The Trailhead.
Brendan is one of the most thoughtful, practical, and humble voices out there when it comes to creative work, and Iโm always better off after talking to him. Hope you enjoy.
—
All photos courtesy of Brendan Leonard
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
… or wherever you get your podcasts!
โ
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 2:11 – Brendan blowing out the speakers
- 3:47 – How Brendan got into teaching and early days at Freeflow
- 8:06 – Brendanโs teachers
- 11:09 – The Feynman technique
- 14:10 – Substack versus a website
- 17:54 – The necessity of marketing yourself
- 20:53 – Keeping the voice
- 25:00 – Moving Brendanโs writing course online
- 27:23 – Keeping it low-key
- 29:40 – Abundance vs. scarcity mentality
- 33:56 – Publisher vs. self-publishing
- 38:39 – Nickels and dimes of self-publishing
- 42:31 – Talking Seven Summits of My Neighborhood
- 50:23 – Digging into the niches
- 51:55 – Curing the male loneliness epidemic
- 55:44 – Helping people with humor
- 58:43 – Treating others with respect
- 1:00:07 – Book recs
Information Referenced:
- Brendan Leonard
- Freeflow Institute
- University of Montana J-School
- Dirtbag Diaries podcast
- The Feynman technique
- Ryan Holidayโs Perennial Seller
- What To Do When Itโs Your Turn
- 15 Second Recipes by Brendan
- The New American Road Trip Mixtape by Brendan
- Sixty Meters to Anywhere by Brendan
- Ultra-Something by Brendan
- The Seven Summits of My Neighborhood, a classic.
- Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wildernessย
- Book recs: The Dad Rock That Made Me A Woman, Penguin Classics box set of really short stories (or at least one of them.)
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Nick Offerman โ Empathy, Nuance, & Good Hard Work
- Mike DeHoff โ Exploring the Colorado Riverโs Reemerging Rapids
- Dr. Alan Townsend โ Generosity & Curiosity in the Face of Tragedy
- Joe Schobert โ From NFL Pro Bowler to Western Conservation Advocate
- Scott Hulet: Reading + Writing + Surfing + Fishing + Traveling
- George Hodgin Returns โ On Risk-Taking, Leadership, and the Future of Cannabis
- Elliot Ross: Where Landscape, Justice, and Storytelling Meet
Visit the podcast page for a full, searchable list of episodes
Sean Claffey โ A Resilient Vision for Sagebrush Country
Sean Claffey is the Southwest Montana Sagebrush Conservation Coordinator at the Nature Conservancy, a role that places him at the center of one of the Westโs most overlooked but critically important ecosystems: the sagebrush steppe. Based in Dillon, Montana, Sean works across public and private lands to protect and restore this sprawling, foundational landscape that serves as habitat for countless species, supports rural economies, and connects the regionโs valleys and mountain ranges. Through his leadership in the Southwest Montana Sagebrush Partnershipโa collaborative effort uniting agencies, landowners, and nonprofitsโSean helps ensure that the health of this โland in betweenโ doesnโt fall through the cracks.
In this conversation, Sean and I dig into the complex threats facing sagebrush country, from invasive grasses and wildfire to conifer encroachment and land conversion. We talk about how fire suppression and ecological shifts have allowed evergreens like Douglas fir and juniper to overtake sagebrush, and how Seanโs team is using a mix of prescribed burns, manual thinning, and innovative partnerships with local mills to restore balance to the landscape. He also shares how theyโre engaging young people in hands-on restoration work, creating pathways for rural youth to connect with the land and gain meaningful employment.
Sean brings a unique blend of scientific insight, community-mindedness, and boots-on-the-ground experience to this work, and heโs quick to credit the collaborative culture of southwest Montana for making so much progress possible. From low-tech wet meadow restoration to building a more resilient restoration economy, this is a hopeful, grounded conversation about how conservation can succeed when it centers people, place, and purpose.
If youโre a new listeners and want to go deeper on this subject, Iโd encourage you to go back and listen to my earlier episode with Matt Cahill who gives an excellent crash course on the Sagebrush Sea and the epsiode with Austin Rempel and Nancy Smith, who dig deep into riparian restoration in Montana.ย ย
But for this episode, be sure the check out the webpage and episode notes for some excellent videos about Seanโs work and links to everything we discuss. Thanks for listening.
Photos courtesy of Sean Claffey
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
โฆor wherever you get your podcasts!
EPISODE PARTNER:
This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Colorado chapter of The Nature Conservancy and TNC chapters throughout the Western United States. Guided by science and grounded by decades of collaborative partnerships, The Nature Conservancy has a long-standing legacy of achieving lasting results to create a world where nature and people thrive.
During the last week of every month throughout 2025, Mountain & Prairie will be delving into conversations with a wide range of The Nature Conservancyโs leaders, partners, collaborators, and stakeholders, highlighting the myriad of conservation challenges, opportunities, and solutions here in the American West and beyond. You can access all of the episodes here.
To learn more about The Nature Conservancyโs impactful work in the West and around the world, visit www.nature.org
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 3:26 – Intro and Edโs love of Dillon
- 4:14 – The Sagebrush Sea
- 7:19 – Pressures on the sea
- 9:42 – Conifer expansion, the main reason for grassland reduction
- 12:00 – Ecological, environmental, economical
- 17:52 – Working with the timber industry
- 21:59 – Southwest Montana Sagebrush Partnership, not just another NGO
- 26:41 – Seanโs first priorities with SW MT Sagebrush
- 30:11 – The way the water should flow
- 34:47 – Youth programming
- 40:53 – Cheatgrass, an actual cheater
- 43:47 – Containing cheatgrass
- 45:01 – Cheatgrass and fire
- 47:02 – Working with private landowners
- 52:58 – Connecting with the community
- 58:21 – A little more about Sean
- 1:01:10 – Career advice for people who want to make the world a better place
- 1:03:54 – Book recs and life recs
Information Referenced:
- Sean Claffey
- Matt Cahill M&P episode
- The Sagebrush Sea, the connective tissue between mountain ranges and valley bottoms.
- Working with a shutdown lumber mill in Dillon to support TNC conservation work.
- Bill Zeedyk, letting the water do the work.
- Nancy Smith and Austin Rempel M&P episode
- Youth Employment Programย
- Conifer expansionย
- Youth Corpsย
- Tribe by Sebastian Junger
- Rx fire, recent imageryย
- Biomass utilizationย
- Wet meadow restorationย
- Southwest Montana Sagebrush Partnership
- The River Why, David James Duncan
- David James Duncan M&P episode
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Adam Cramer โ Fighting for the Future of Public Lands
- Chris Pague โ Stories, Science, and the Southern High Plains
- Nancy Smith & Austin Rempel โ A Surprisingly Simple, Effective, and Scalable Approach to Riparian Restoration
- Matt Cahill โ A Deep Dive into the Sagebrush Sea
- Curt Meine โ Aldo Leopoldโs Life, Work, and Enduring Legacy
- The Partnership of Rangeland Trusts โ 20 Years of Cooperation, Collaboration, and Conservation
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.
Adam Cramer โ Fighting for the Future of Public Lands
Adam Cramer is the CEO of the Outdoor Alliance, a coalition that brings together human-powered outdoor recreation groups to protect public lands and waters. With a deep understanding of both policy and recreation, Adam has helped position the Outdoor Alliance as a powerful voice in the national conservation movementโbridging the gap between grassroots outdoor communities and high-level decision-making in Washington, DC.
Before launching into public lands advocacy, Adam spent years working as an attorney in DC. But outside the office, his life was centered on outdoor adventureโhe started as a skateboarder, then became a climber, and eventually a whitewater kayaker. A chance encounter in a river parking area led to his first pro bono conservation case, and that spark ultimately evolved into his full-time vocation. Adamโs story is a testament to the idea that if you care deeply about a place, thereโs a way to use your unique skills to help protect it.
In this conversation, we talked about the origins of the Outdoor Alliance, Adamโs evolution from attorney to coalition-builder, and why generosityโnot dominanceโis his guiding principle for leadership. We discussed why civic engagement matters more than ever, how outdoor recreation can build bipartisan bridges, and why showing upโeven when it feels smallโcan make a real difference.
Itโs worth noting that we recorded this conversation in early June 2025, just as a wave of new legislation and political turbulence was rolling across the public lands landscape. Since then, things have continued to change rapidly. If you care about the future of outdoor recreation and conservation in this country, I highly recommend signing up for the Outdoor Allianceโs newsletter or following them on social media to stay informed and involved.ย
Again, a big thanks to the Mighty Arrow Family Foundation for introducing me to Adam and another big thanks to Patagonia Denver for generously letting us use their community room to record this conversation. Enjoy!
—
Photos courtesy of Adam Cramer and the Outdoor Alliance
LISTEN & DOWNLOAD:
Apple Podcasts
Spotify
โฆor wherever you get your podcasts!
EPISODE PARTNER:
This episode is brought to you in partnership with the Mighty Arrow Family Foundation.
To whom much is given, much is expected. This value guides the philosophy behind the Mighty Arrow Family Foundation today.
Committed to its cause and infused with an entrepreneurial spirit, Mighty Arrow aims to invest in solutions that take action on climate change to build a more vibrant future, repair relationships from farm to market to table, heal our connection to the lands and waters we call home, and demand a more just and equitable society.
To learn more about Mighty Arrowโs forward-thinking, optimistic, and visionary work here in the American West and beyond, please visit www.mightyarrow.org.
RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 3:05 โ Intro (with a jiu jitsu connection)
- 6:45 โ Law school, then what?
- 8:01 โ The individuality of skateboarding
- 10:38 โ Billdering
- 11:45 โ Beginning of kayaking and the end of a relationship
- 13:40 โ A type of code switching
- 16:26 โ Giving back to the places
- 23:03 โ How Outdoor Alliance came together
- 27:51 โ Sticking points
- 30:46 โ Attorney mindset to strategy point-person
- 33:13 โ Leadership inspiration
- 37:24 โ A generous mindset
- 42:49 โ Whoโs pro selling off public lands?
- 45:21 โ Guidepost goals
- 49:04 โ The reason Adam got on the plane to Colorado, where heโs talking with Ed
- 48:14 – Why you should engage with your elected officials
- 58:30 – Evidence the world doesnโt totally suck
- 59:43 – Optimistic?
- 1:03:40 – How to get involved
- 1:05:06 – Book recs
Information Referenced:
- Adam Cramer
- Outdoor Alliance
- Outdoor Alliance – TAKE ACTION
- Sign up for Outdoor Alliance Action Alerts
- The latest from the Outdoor Alliance (as of 6.16.25)
- Outdoor Alliance on Instagram
- American Whitewater, a law firm that started the path of Adamโs giving back to a place.
- Upper Yough, what Adam decided to fight for. Background from American Whitewater.
- William Guerry, Adamโs former boss, who encouraged his early conservation advocacy.
- FLIPMA, federal law that, in essence, says the federal estate should remain intact.
- Advocacy Days exist for many different organizations. Hereโs info on one for the Land Trust Alliance.
- Public Lands in Public Hands Act
- Book recs: The Fire Next Time by James Baldwin; Ezra Kleinโs Abundance
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Kristine Tompkins โ Nothing to Lose
- Sonnie Trotter โ On Flow, Family, and the Long Game
- Aaron Citron: Crafting Conservation Policy in a Changing West
- Hal Herring Returns โ Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Pete McBride Returns โ Exploring & Documenting His Backyard River
- Sandy Colhoun โ Building Leaders Through Outdoor Education
- Elliot Ross: Where Landscape, Justice, and Storytelling Meet
Visit the podcast page for a full list of episodes where you can filter episodes by topic and guests’ vocations.



















































