Betsy Gaines Quammen is a Montana-based historian and writer whose work explores the history and myths of the American West, and how those stories have endured and shaped life in the region today. Betsy joined me on the podcast several years ago to discuss her amazing book, American Zion: Cliven Bundy, God, and Public Lands in the West, and since then, she’s published another must-read: True West: Myth and Mending on the Far Side of America. In True West, Betsy meets face-to-face with a wide range of folks here in the West– from militia members to hardcore environmentalists– and seeks to understand why they believe what they do. Combining these conversations with her deep understanding of history, Betsy is able to demonstrate the fascinating complexity and contradictions that define many of the people and issues in today’s West.
We recorded this conversation on stage at the 2024 Old Salt Festival, where Betsy was nice enough to join us for the three-day festival of music, food, and conversation. As you’ll hear me say in the episode, Betsy and her work have played a huge role in my never-ending quest to try and understand this region, and I consider her to be a great friend and mentor. But even if you don’t have any interest in the West’s history or modern-day conflicts, there are big lessons to be learned from Betsy’s approach to her work. She is committed to finding the humanity in everyone– even people she completely disagrees with. Rather than attack them and their ideas, she approaches them with genuine curiosity, really trying to understand what they believe and why. And even when no common ideological ground can be found, there is still mutual respect. And I think most people will agree that we need more of these types of respectful interactions these days.
In this conversation, we talk a bit about Betsy’s background and why she is so fascinated with understanding myths and the West. We talk about her commitment to having deep conversations with people across political and socio-economic spectrums, and she describes one of the unlikely friendships she built with a man whose views on politics, public lands, and the environment could not be further from her own. We discuss the importance of getting off the internet and having face-to-face conversations, how real estate development is changing the ecology and economics of the West, her thoughts on the future, and more. We also took questions from the audience, which was a lot of fun.
Again, I can’t thank Betsy enough for joining me onstage for this conversation, but more importantly, for the wisdom she has shared with me over the years. If you haven’t read True West, I encourage you to pick up a copy as soon as you can, and I’d also encourage you to listen to our first conversation, where Betsy talks a lot about her life and career journey. And tickets for the 2025 Old Salt Festival are on sale now, so if you’d like to experience conversations like this in person– plus music, food, Western makers, and more– follow the link in the episode notes to grab your tickets.
Enjoy!
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Header photo by Ed, headshot courtesy of Betsy Gaines Quammen
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RESOURCES:
Topics Discussed:
- 4:15 – Introducing Betsy at Old Salt
- 7:45 – Why the West?
- 10:15 – Discussing myths
- 14:15 – Betsy talks across the aisle
- 17:30 – Betsy’s relationship with Lance
- 19:45 – Lance’s email
- 23:15 – Creating conversations outside the internet
- 26:00 – Real estate development in the West
- 30:00 – Covid as a catalyst
- 34:30 – Predicting the future
- 35:45 – Q&A
- 39:15 – Should we trust the government?
- 41:30 – Lance’s takeaways
- 43:30 – A ‘real’ Montanan
- 49:45 – Our energy future
- 53:00 – Parting thoughts
Information Referenced:
- Betsy Gaines Quammen
- Old Salt Festival
- True West by Betsy Gaines Quammen
- American Zion by Betsy Gaines Quammen
- Betsy’s first M&P episode
- Montana Book Company in Helena, Montana
- Stewart Rhoades’ Montana connections, courtesy the Flathead Beacon
- M&P’s conversation with Hal Herring at Old Salt
- Becoming Little Shell by Chris La Tray, Montana’s poet laureate
- An Irritable Métis, Chris La Tray’s Substack
- Chris La Tray on M&P
- Sterling Drake on M&P
- M&P and The Nature Conservancy on the energy transition
Enjoy this episode? Then you might like these too:
- Dr. Sara Dant Returns – “Losing Eden: An Environmental History of the American West”
- Douglas Brinkley – Exploring the Past to Find Inspiration for the Future
- Cole Mannix – Building Community through Land Stewardship and Local Food
- Doug Peacock – 50 Years of Fighting for the Grizzlies
- David James Duncan – Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Hal Herring Returns – Live at the Old Salt Festival
- Jesse Smith – A Regenerative Approach to Land and Life
Visit the podcast page for a full, searchable list of episodes
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